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Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

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Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#131

Post by perl4ever »

tikej wrote: post #88
hprotagonist wrote: post #53

Mostly, my advice as a biomedical researcher and modeler/software user is this, which is not skills based at all and is instead just a reminder that you're going to need a really fundamental shift in thinking. Get the notion that "biology is a computer that we can fundamentally and totally understand at the level that we understand Church-Turing" out of your head as soon as possible because it is incorrect. Biologica…

So much this. I think the most difficult thing about transition from hard sciences such as cs/physics/math to wet science such as biology/sociology/psychology is to get used to the fact that sometimes things don't work and behave as expected and it takes enormous amount of work to get it right. Therefore you can't really go and design things form the first principles, since first principles are not really that well k…

"sometimes things don't work and behave as expected"

I think it's a great misconception to think that people who work with computers work things out from first principles. Dealing with complex systems that they don't understand, and repeatedly plunging into new areas, is exactly why computer people think they can handle things like biology.

It also seems illogical to say "nobody understands biology, therefore you cannot hope to". If nobody understands much, that makes it more likely an outsider can contribute.

The attitude of many responses in this thread reminds me of the culture/class gap I've seen between lawyers and legal IT analysts (one person I worked with had a degree in biology as it happened).

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#132

Post by perl4ever »

Odenwaelder wrote: post #23
codingdave wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are going to need a PhD if you want to truly understand all of the background of the field Is that the need, though? Few SaaS CEOs truly understand all the background of computer science. They do understand the problem space, but they leave it to the experts in the organization to get into the details of applying computer science to the problem. Is biology different, where the level of expertise needs to be at…

In biology, the problem space is extremely vast and very hard to understand. I have a PhD in biology and find computer science relatively logical and simple. You can just look things up. Looking things up for a specific topic is not even easy in biology.

"You can just look things up"

Not only is documentation pretty scarce these days, but good information on the interactions between pieces of software is much scarcer, due to the exponential number of ways that it can interact.

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#133

Post by perl4ever »

goatlover wrote: post #89
esel2k wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how you find comp science is simple and logic. Of course on a if else method level yes. But how to have a running system, dependencies, fail safe operations all coupled with tousand / millions lines of code is easily more complicated than a simply thesis about a mode of action of a protein. I think we need to stop this useless debate as clearly one side has often no clue about the other. This behavior has led t…

The point is that a computer system can be entirely understood from the chips on up. Sure, it gets complex with millions of LOC. But we humans designed computers and wrote the code. Biology is not like that, and there is lack of a completed understanding form the proteins on up. So you get the complexity amplified on all fronts.

What do you mean "can"? Nobody ever does, so I think it is valid to say that it "cannot". Otherwise, you could just as well say that a biological system can be understood from the atoms on up, since quantum theory provides a complete understanding.

I think that you and a lot of people in this thread don't understand the impossibility of understanding millions of lines of code. Do you really think "computer geeks" just hold them all in their heads, and then assume that since they can do that, it must not be difficult?

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#134

Post by perl4ever »

analog31 wrote: post #115
unearthed wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are Phds so cheap to hire if their skills are so valueable?

Disclaimer: I have a PhD. I think one problem is that the love of the subject matter motivates people to go far beyond the bare minimum training required to get a job.

Other comment mentioned game developers; I think another obvious comparison is pilots. Anything people will do because it's fulfilling or prestigious or a popular mission in life will produce an excessive number of applicants for positions.

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#135

Post by omar_a1 »

pochekailov wrote: post #107

I have spent 11 years in molecular biology research. I must warn you about a survivorship bias. All the exciting news you are hearing are the tip of a giant iceberg that rests on the mounts of a most dull and repetitive labor. Here are some realities that nobody tells you: 1. There are only 3 operations done in experimental biology: liquid pipetting, opening/closing tubes and moving tubes between machines. 90% of pro…

I was coming into this thread to recommend looking for entry level part time mcb/bio lab work precisely because of point #1.

It's a wax on, wax off thing. The repetition gives you a chance to reflect on the rationale for your technique and bigger picture of what you're doing, in addition to getting hands-on experience in the field.

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#136

Post by _0z6m »

tikej wrote: post #88
hprotagonist wrote: post #53

Mostly, my advice as a biomedical researcher and modeler/software user is this, which is not skills based at all and is instead just a reminder that you're going to need a really fundamental shift in thinking. Get the notion that "biology is a computer that we can fundamentally and totally understand at the level that we understand Church-Turing" out of your head as soon as possible because it is incorrect. Biologica…

So much this. I think the most difficult thing about transition from hard sciences such as cs/physics/math to wet science such as biology/sociology/psychology is to get used to the fact that sometimes things don't work and behave as expected and it takes enormous amount of work to get it right. Therefore you can't really go and design things form the first principles, since first principles are not really that well k…

Thirding this. For all the people outside of science who seem to hold it up as this shining example of logical purity, in practice things are far more ambiguous than we're making it out to be.

When I did lab work, results pretty much always had to be viewed through the lense of "Did my technique screw up the data?" before you can even start thinking about the research implications.

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#137

Post by pochekailov »

omar_a1 wrote: post #135
pochekailov wrote: post #107

I have spent 11 years in molecular biology research. I must warn you about a survivorship bias. All the exciting news you are hearing are the tip of a giant iceberg that rests on the mounts of a most dull and repetitive labor. Here are some realities that nobody tells you: 1. There are only 3 operations done in experimental biology: liquid pipetting, opening/closing tubes and moving tubes between machines. 90% of pro…

I was coming into this thread to recommend looking for entry level part time mcb/bio lab work precisely because of point #1. It's a wax on, wax off thing. The repetition gives you a chance to reflect on the rationale for your technique and bigger picture of what you're doing, in addition to getting hands-on experience in the field.

I think a part-time job would be an overkill

I have trained many students to do biology, and I can teach anybody, without any education, to perform molecular biology experiments in 2 weeks.

I 2 months, they are usually able to generate scientifically valid ideas for research (although, usually not the best ideas).

Biology is extremely simple as a field, and a computer scientist will have no problem getting into the field (while opposite is usually hard)

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#138

Post by iongoatb »

pvaldes wrote: post #128
Odenwaelder wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge gap between having knowledge from books and being able to do original research, let alone solving a biomedical niche problem using CRISPR. This gap is usually filled with an advanced degree, where you spend years in the lab, keep track of the latest research in the field, try to find your niche and solve the actual problem. I mean, by all means, try it. But life sciences are not computer science. The…

> But life sciences are not computer science Exact 1) The use of materials is totally different Computer programming is a stuf that uses reciclable electricity and "eating your own dog food" kind programs, cheap to produce or free to copy, easily available and in many cases free except by the hardware (Hardware that can be hired, "clouded" or increased gradually). You don't need to pay a dime for using R, C, Perl or…

Describing the current state of CS and comparing it to the current state of biotech/genetic engineering is like comparing apples to oranges. In the beginning of the computer revolution the obstacles were extremely similar to the current obstacles (or opportunities) with biotech. The materials were expensive, documentation wasn't abundant, people didn't think personal computers would ever be a thing or that people would interact on the internet using social networks, and server/computing costs were extremely capital intensive before cloud computing.

There is a great opportunity at this moment, similar to the opportunity that Bill Gates and Paul Allen had. Mainframe computers were expensive, yet they found ways to practice and become highly skilled. There wasn't documentation like there is now, yet hacking culture found ways to build cool and effective stuff. Obviously there wasn't a linear path to success - people thought personal computers would never be necessary, yet Apple and Microsoft were huge successes that no one ever expected. There are people that see opportunity in fields like biotech and bioengineering, and there are people that only see the obstacles. The former create amazing things, while years later the latter are envious that they didn't have similar vision and courage.

You made my point.

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#139

Post by pvaldes »

iongoatb wrote: post #138
pvaldes wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But life sciences are not computer science Exact 1) The use of materials is totally different Computer programming is a stuf that uses reciclable electricity and "eating your own dog food" kind programs, cheap to produce or free to copy, easily available and in many cases free except by the hardware (Hardware that can be hired, "clouded" or increased gradually). You don't need to pay a dime for using R, C, Perl or…

Describing the current state of CS and comparing it to the current state of biotech/genetic engineering is like comparing apples to oranges. In the beginning of the computer revolution the obstacles were extremely similar to the current obstacles (or opportunities) with biotech. The materials were expensive, documentation wasn't abundant, people didn't think personal computers would ever be a thing or that people wou…

>There is a great opportunity at this moment

I wouldn't advice to invest in the company of this guy, but is their money, not mine, so... do as you please. Honestly, I would love to hear that he became billionaire.

Re: Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software background

#140

Post by unearthed »

teekert wrote: post #126
unearthed wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love git. Literally the only way to be productive when you've got more than 4 people touching code. Do you guys allow remote work?

I work from home sometimes, and 1 of our team members is in the US (but still at the same company). We have no people completely isolated that never come into the office.

I know for programmers / coders its a weird question but what about part time?
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