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Can You Overdose on Happiness?

nautil.us

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Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#51

Post by proverbialbunny »

vinceguidry wrote: post #34

Some 8 years or so ago I experimented with triggering mood changes using a meditative technique. I had long been doing 'centering' meditative exercises so that I could bring more focus and clarity to seated practice. I wanted something more practical that would affect my everyday life. I eventually settled on two 'states'. A 'centered' state and a 'joyful' one. Any time I noticed myself outside of one of the two stat…

I too have bumped into this during meditation, but being in my early 20s and not having a teacher or instructions, I ODed on bliss.

I was living in a state of bliss I could turn up and down for years. I could turn it up so high I'd pass out from it.

After years of this, something happened and I stopped being able to feel bliss at all. It was like a part of my neurology had been fried. I assumed it was something I had done so I turned to suttas to try to figure out what was up, assuming it was a meditation problem. I learned Buddhism, I solved my psychological problems, even ended suffering, but at the end of the day the bliss was gone never to come back.

Doctors call it depression, but I'm optimistic and enjoy life. They may have never bumped into anyone like me before.

At the end of the day I'm grateful for the experiences I've had, but if you live high as a kite for years, you can OD on it. I imagine someone who ODs on a benzo or meth might have a similar experience.

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#52

Post by razorunreal »

program_whiz wrote: post #44
tosser0001 wrote: post #36

I knew a guy who I always thought was basically the opposite of clinically depressed - I thought of him as "clinically happy". In some ways I was a bit jealous of how he never seemed to let things get to him. But on the other hand, he would let certain aspects of his life fall apart in ways that seemed to me his perpetual good humor perhaps didn't allow him to address. If he had felt a bit more discomfort I think he…

Totally get what you're saying, have known people like that. But then it begs the question -- end up in a better place for what reason? If being "in a better place" wasn't going to improve how he felt internally, why bother? I think its hard for us normies to understand people like that, because its so obvious how it would be "better" to have more money, stability, etc, but perhaps the definition of enlightenment is…

I think our emotional responses exist to guide us towards good decisions. If you take a reinforcement learning system and you always give it positive reinforcement, it will not learn much of anything. I guess I'm saying your enlightenment is irrelevant if it's not improving your survival.

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#53

Post by mockingbirdy »

vinceguidry wrote: post #48
vinceguidry wrote: post #34

Some 8 years or so ago I experimented with triggering mood changes using a meditative technique. I had long been doing 'centering' meditative exercises so that I could bring more focus and clarity to seated practice. I wanted something more practical that would affect my everyday life. I eventually settled on two 'states'. A 'centered' state and a 'joyful' one. Any time I noticed myself outside of one of the two stat…

I'll reply once to my own comment to the three requests for tutelage with the same thing I sent in the one person that emailed me. The technique isn't particularly hard to develop. I used hand gestures. Hold your hands in the gesture and focus on the desired mood. Best done initially when you are only slightly 'off' from the desired mood. Rinse and repeat until you can do it more readily and in situations that are fu…

For the sibling comments who are eager to change their minds (literally): Please note that there are also risks.

OP and proverbialbunny talk about negative aspects that you should be aware of (especially because it sounds like some of you reach out to this with great desire). Messing with the void without proper understanding is dangerous.

[1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-po...

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#54

Post by kranner »

mockingbirdy wrote: post #53
vinceguidry wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll reply once to my own comment to the three requests for tutelage with the same thing I sent in the one person that emailed me. The technique isn't particularly hard to develop. I used hand gestures. Hold your hands in the gesture and focus on the desired mood. Best done initially when you are only slightly 'off' from the desired mood. Rinse and repeat until you can do it more readily and in situations that are fu…

For the sibling comments who are eager to change their minds (literally): Please note that there are also risks. OP and proverbialbunny talk about negative aspects that you should be aware of (especially because it sounds like some of you reach out to this with great desire). Messing with the void without proper understanding is dangerous. [1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-po...

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process?

Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering.

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#55

Post by mockingbirdy »

kranner wrote: post #54
mockingbirdy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sibling comments who are eager to change their minds (literally): Please note that there are also risks. OP and proverbialbunny talk about negative aspects that you should be aware of (especially because it sounds like some of you reach out to this with great desire). Messing with the void without proper understanding is dangerous. [1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-po...

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our f…

Yes, the same process on the path to enlightenment that makes you become aware of your no-self is the same that most people in this article suffer with.

That's the reason I gave this warning: Most people don't want enlightenment, they just want a "life hack" ("change your mood to calmness and joy with these 5 simple steps"). I don't see a problem with this, but I see the possibility of enduring pain in these people. The path to enlightenment is a commitment only a few are willing to make - it is the most painful of all ways, but it's also the only one (for some - only those have a chance of bearing the pain). well, you know, that's just like, my opinion, man.

The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles.

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#56

Post by kranner »

mockingbirdy wrote: post #55
kranner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our f…

Yes, the same process on the path to enlightenment that makes you become aware of your no-self is the same that most people in this article suffer with. That's the reason I gave this warning: Most people don't want enlightenment, they just want a "life hack" ("change your mood to calmness and joy with these 5 simple steps"). I don't see a problem with this, but I see the possibility of enduring pain in these people.…

It may turn out we're rather attached to those circles.

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#57

Post by spicymaki »

kranner wrote: post #54
mockingbirdy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sibling comments who are eager to change their minds (literally): Please note that there are also risks. OP and proverbialbunny talk about negative aspects that you should be aware of (especially because it sounds like some of you reach out to this with great desire). Messing with the void without proper understanding is dangerous. [1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-po...

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our f…

>Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process?

Probably. However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice.

>Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)?

Yes, the Buddhist path[1] is supposed to lead to the end of suffering and rebirth. Clinging and craving produces karma which leads to rebirth. Stopping karma will lead to the cessation of suffering or nirvana.

>it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering.

No, it is not possible[2] for a householder to attain enlightenment. As a householder you have responsibilities (house, family, work) which inherently leads to clinging. However as a householder you can improve your chances at a good rebirth through merit (good karma). The best a householder can attain is stream entry. Monastics offload the dirty work of human survival (food, protection, etc) to householders in return for merit (virtuous cycle). You have to don the robes to cross the stream.

[1] The Noble Eightfold Path

[2] In traditional Buddhism

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#58

Post by kranner »

spicymaki wrote: post #57
kranner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our f…

>Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Probably. However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice. >Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Yes, the Buddhist path[1] is supposed to lead to the end of suffering and rebirth. Clinging and craving prod…

> However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice.

Maybe 'the practice' (as practiced by people in the Vice article) is incomplete, in the sense of lacking a better understanding of things to expect, companion meditators, ethical guidelines (Sila), and a more experienced teacher to help one understand what one is going through mentally.

> No, it is not possible for a householder to attain enlightenment.

I think this is incorrect. The Pali Canon mentions at least a few lay Arahants and many lay once-returners and non-returners (so beyond the stage of stream-entry). [1]

I should mention that I'm not Buddhist and don't really believe in rebirth, karma, enlightenment literally. However I do believe at least karma and enlightenment can be stripped down to psychological processes and states, and I don't see a reason why a dedicated and talented householder can't achieve the psychological equivalent of enlightenment.

[1] https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Lay_arahant

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#59

Post by spicymaki »

kranner wrote: post #58
spicymaki wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Probably. However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice. >Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Yes, the Buddhist path[1] is supposed to lead to the end of suffering and rebirth. Clinging and craving prod…

> However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice. Maybe 'the practice' (as practiced by people in the Vice article) is incomplete, in the sense of lacking a better understanding of things to expect, companion meditators, ethical guidelines (Sila), and a more experienced teacher to help one understand what one is going through mentally. > No, it is not possibl…

> I think this is incorrect. The Pali Canon mentions at least a few lay Arahants and many lay once-returners and non-returners (so beyond the stage of stream-entry). [1]

I stand corrected. I should have limited my point to say that nirvana is out of reach for householders.

>I should mention that I'm not Buddhist ...

Same here. I am personally not into the unsubstantiated ideas in Buddhism (like rebirth, supernatural, etc). I just think much of the Buddhist philosophy is interesting and useful.

Re: Can You Overdose on Happiness?

#60

Post by vinceguidry »

mockingbirdy wrote: post #55
kranner wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our f…

Yes, the same process on the path to enlightenment that makes you become aware of your no-self is the same that most people in this article suffer with. That's the reason I gave this warning: Most people don't want enlightenment, they just want a "life hack" ("change your mood to calmness and joy with these 5 simple steps"). I don't see a problem with this, but I see the possibility of enduring pain in these people.…

> The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles.

In my case, the search did not stop, the circles just found new dimension.

The rest of your truth is perfectly truthful. :-)

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