Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Fantasy of Opting Out

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 205 posts

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#51

Post by antocv »

imgabe wrote: post #50

> But if we are nearly as observed and documented as any person in history, our situation is a prison that, although it has no walls, bars, or wardens, is difficult to escape. The defining characteristic of a prison is a loss of freedom. What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? It's unlikely that we're going to put the technology genie back in the bottle. Instead we need t…

> What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing

Organizing tea parties without being surveilled and oppressed?

Inviting friends to a meeting, without tech giants knowing about it, and taking actions against said meeting.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#52

Post by xorand »

imgabe wrote: post #50

> But if we are nearly as observed and documented as any person in history, our situation is a prison that, although it has no walls, bars, or wardens, is difficult to escape. The defining characteristic of a prison is a loss of freedom. What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? It's unlikely that we're going to put the technology genie back in the bottle. Instead we need t…

>What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing?

Please make public all your (accounts,passwords) or at least post publicly all your communication. What is it that you want to do that these actions would preventing you from doing?

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#53

Post by imgabe »

xorand wrote: post #52
imgabe wrote: post #50

> But if we are nearly as observed and documented as any person in history, our situation is a prison that, although it has no walls, bars, or wardens, is difficult to escape. The defining characteristic of a prison is a loss of freedom. What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? It's unlikely that we're going to put the technology genie back in the bottle. Instead we need t…

>What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? Please make public all your (accounts,passwords) or at least post publicly all your communication. What is it that you want to do that these actions would preventing you from doing?

The technologies discussed in the article do not record account passwords, nor are there any such technologies proposed that would do so.

Services you use already have a record of your account password (or a hash of it at least). It is necessary in order for you to be able to use the service. You supply your Amazon password to Amazon every time you log in. Are you saying you need to keep it a secret from them?

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#54

Post by TeMPOraL »

eadmund wrote: post #36
cousin_it wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that argument proves too much. To a user browsing the web, clicking a link that says "check out this nice article" signifies intention/consent to read that article, not to suffer the effects of all possible JS tripwires including pwning their computer and such.

Sure, but all this tracking isn't a product of JS tripwires pwning computers: it's a natural result of downloading an article from a server.

No, it's a result of the article telling the browser to also download and execute analytics scripts. It's abusing the good faith HTTP protocol was built upon. That's why I consider ad/content blockers OK and desirable. They're a way for users to express that they don't consent to loading and execution of some resources.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#55

Post by macspoofing »

Yes, there is some friction in opting out just like there is friction in any action you want to take (from going to the grocery store to voting). So what?

The reality is that some people really care about this stuff but the wider population doesn't. The people that care tend to get really frustrated at the wider population and attribute the population's uncaring attitude to the small amount of friction that it takes to opt out and/or to ignorance and/or low-intelligence. This is followed by a push for a government policy to adjust the behaviour. If people won't care by themselves or are too stupid to do it, we'll make them care through laws ... and that usually results in idiotic policies like a cookie warning on every webpage on the internet.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#56

Post by imgabe »

antocv wrote: post #51
imgabe wrote: post #50

> But if we are nearly as observed and documented as any person in history, our situation is a prison that, although it has no walls, bars, or wardens, is difficult to escape. The defining characteristic of a prison is a loss of freedom. What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? It's unlikely that we're going to put the technology genie back in the bottle. Instead we need t…

> What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing Organizing tea parties without being surveilled and oppressed? Inviting friends to a meeting, without tech giants knowing about it, and taking actions against said meeting.

Which actions are tech giants taking against people organizing meetings?

Does Google have a goon squad that is busting people's doors down and breaking up meetings? It seems like something like that would be in the news somewhere.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#57

Post by Tade0 »

imgabe wrote: post #50

> But if we are nearly as observed and documented as any person in history, our situation is a prison that, although it has no walls, bars, or wardens, is difficult to escape. The defining characteristic of a prison is a loss of freedom. What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? It's unlikely that we're going to put the technology genie back in the bottle. Instead we need t…

> What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing?

Have secrets.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#58

Post by missosoup »

imgabe wrote: post #50

> But if we are nearly as observed and documented as any person in history, our situation is a prison that, although it has no walls, bars, or wardens, is difficult to escape. The defining characteristic of a prison is a loss of freedom. What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? It's unlikely that we're going to put the technology genie back in the bottle. Instead we need t…

Always-on surveillance is the ultimate prison. Foucault articulated this very clearly back in the 70s in Discipline and Punish. You don't need walls, you don't even need guards. You just need an ever-present observer and a fear of being observed doing something 'undesirable'.

Perhaps the genie isn't going back in the bottle, but rolling over and reiterating the 'if you have nothing to hide...' fallacy is not a productive course of action either.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#59

Post by imgabe »

missosoup wrote: post #58
imgabe wrote: post #50

> But if we are nearly as observed and documented as any person in history, our situation is a prison that, although it has no walls, bars, or wardens, is difficult to escape. The defining characteristic of a prison is a loss of freedom. What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? It's unlikely that we're going to put the technology genie back in the bottle. Instead we need t…

Always-on surveillance is the ultimate prison. Foucault articulated this very clearly back in the 70s in Discipline and Punish. You don't need walls, you don't even need guards. You just need an ever-present observer and a fear of being observed doing something 'undesirable'. Perhaps the genie isn't going back in the bottle, but rolling over and reiterating the 'if you have nothing to hide...' fallacy is not a produc…

Nowhere did I say anything about "...nothing to hide". I am saying we need to, via legislation, weaken governmental and corporate authority, and increase personal authority so that the data collected cannot be used to harm us. Because the real fantasy here is that there is some way the data is not going to be collected.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#60

Post by xorand »

imgabe wrote: post #53
xorand wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is it that you want to do that these technologies are preventing you from doing? Please make public all your (accounts,passwords) or at least post publicly all your communication. What is it that you want to do that these actions would preventing you from doing?

The technologies discussed in the article do not record account passwords, nor are there any such technologies proposed that would do so. Services you use already have a record of your account password (or a hash of it at least). It is necessary in order for you to be able to use the service. You supply your Amazon password to Amazon every time you log in. Are you saying you need to keep it a secret from them?

There is a famous analogy, I forgot the source (maybe Cory Doctorow?): why do you have a door at your toilet? everybody knows what you are doing there.

So I don't need any of your private data. I voluntarily post my own, as concerns my passions. But let me choose what I make public and what I don't. That's the point.

(I don't use Amazon. All my work is public, I use only free software, even at home.)

Post reply on HN