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The Fantasy of Opting Out

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

31–40 of 205 posts

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#31
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grandparent's statement is pretty absolute, but I find myself in agreement with it. Data collection is the right place to intervene, because once collected, data can be copied and misused at any time in the future. > when you read this comment you'll have loaded a page on HN. That means HN's server probably has a log of your IP address, browser agent string, etc. Such logging isn't technically necessary to serve web…

It's spying if you didn't consent to it. There's no explicit consent but the fact you've told your computer to download some code and run it looks a lot like implied consent.

I think that argument proves too much. To a user browsing the web, clicking a link that says "check out this nice article" signifies intention/consent to read that article, not to suffer the effects of all possible JS tripwires including pwning their computer and such.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#32
post #7

It's the year 2027. You get a notification from the H8Watch™ by the ADL app, default installed on every phone, and can't be deleted without jailbreaking. You open the notification, and it shows a video of you from 2 weeks ago, from a camera embedded in the table of the fast food restaurant from where you were eating lunch with your friend. Your voice has been reconstructed through lipreading software and played back…

Actually the year is 2032.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rVQGT01Kzg

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#33
post #9
post #5

I cannot help but wonder if the use of such tools as the ones listed in the article are not just "privacy theater", in the same sense that we have come to realize that much of what happens in the name of security is just "security theater". Ironically, of course, is that much of what happens in the name of security is exactly what takes away our privacy in the first place. What is needed is for people to tangibly suf…

Ther is a wakeup call already but it needs to come from us (tech workers). We do understand what is going on, we do use use adblockers, application firewalls, obfuscate our online fingerprints, use multiple accounts etc. On the other side we also produce tools for mass survailance, ads networks, tracking, implement telemetry, adding ads providers frameworks to our applications. In same breath we are protesting agains…

Do to others anything they accept to take. But tell them about what you do. One way or another, don't hide what you do, explain what you do.

On your drug analogy: sell drugs, and tell exactly what drug you are making. Or others, less scrupulous will make all sort of drugs, hiding what's exactly in them.

Do what you are good at, and make sure to inform, if whoever you are doing it for isn't playing transparency then whisleblow what they do. Then quit or stay, that part will depend on what impact you want to make to this world.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#34
post #9
post #5

I cannot help but wonder if the use of such tools as the ones listed in the article are not just "privacy theater", in the same sense that we have come to realize that much of what happens in the name of security is just "security theater". Ironically, of course, is that much of what happens in the name of security is exactly what takes away our privacy in the first place. What is needed is for people to tangibly suf…

Ther is a wakeup call already but it needs to come from us (tech workers). We do understand what is going on, we do use use adblockers, application firewalls, obfuscate our online fingerprints, use multiple accounts etc. On the other side we also produce tools for mass survailance, ads networks, tracking, implement telemetry, adding ads providers frameworks to our applications. In same breath we are protesting agains…

>We do understand what is going on, we do use use adblockers, application firewalls, obfuscate our online fingerprints, use multiple accounts etc.

That seems like a broad statement. I tend to use adblockers (but not religiously). But I generally don't obfuscate my online behavior or firewall different identities for most purposes. I certainly would for certain types of online behavior--and certainly for things like political dissent in some countries--but by and large I try to avoid doing things online I wouldn't want someone to find out about.

(Obviously I'm talking about actions that don't carry an expectation of person to person communications as opposed to broadcast. Though, even then, I'm pretty careful about what I commit to digital text or image that could potentially leak.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#35
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one should spy on your life. Absolute statements are always wrong. ;) The problem with this way of thinking is that it's very hard to define what 'spying' is, and what 'your life' is. This is best illustrated with an example - when you read this comment you'll have loaded a page on HN. That means HN's server probably has a log of your IP address, browser agent string, etc. There's a complete history of every artic…

Grandparent's statement is pretty absolute, but I find myself in agreement with it. Data collection is the right place to intervene, because once collected, data can be copied and misused at any time in the future. > when you read this comment you'll have loaded a page on HN. That means HN's server probably has a log of your IP address, browser agent string, etc. Such logging isn't technically necessary to serve web…

> Such logging isn't technically necessary to serve web pages, and ideally shouldn't be done without consent.

It's needed as soon as you want to do: non-trivial spam protection, context connection for errors/exceptions, dos mitigation, correlation of issues across browsers, and a few other things.

For most of those you could theoretically hash the IP because you're interested in matches not actual values (although matching either the AS or at least /24 makes things easier). But until we migrate to IPv6 hashing doesn't make sense (and once we move, keeping individual addresses doesn't make sense).

Basically the bigger the site, the more important that information is for operations.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#36
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's spying if you didn't consent to it. There's no explicit consent but the fact you've told your computer to download some code and run it looks a lot like implied consent.

I think that argument proves too much. To a user browsing the web, clicking a link that says "check out this nice article" signifies intention/consent to read that article, not to suffer the effects of all possible JS tripwires including pwning their computer and such.

Sure, but all this tracking isn't a product of JS tripwires pwning computers: it's a natural result of downloading an article from a server.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#37
With a clamor of bells that set the swallows soaring, the Festival of Summer came to the city Omelas, bright-towered by the sea. The rigging of the boats in harbor sparkled with flags. In the streets between houses with red roofs and painted walls, between old moss-grown gardens and under avenues of trees, past great parks and public buildings, processions moved. Some were decorous: old people in long stiff robes of mauve and grey, grave master workmen, quiet, merry women carrying their babies and chatting as they walked. In other streets the music beat faster, a shimmering of gong and tambourine, and the people went dancing, the procession was a dance. Children dodged in and out, their high calls rising like the swallows' crossing flights, over the music and the singing. All the processions wound towards the north side of the city, where on the great water-meadow called the Green' Fields boys and girls, naked in the bright air, with mud-stained feet and ankles and long, lithe arms, exercised their restive horses before the race. The horses wore no gear at all but a halter without bit. Their manes were braided with streamers of silver, gold, and green. They flared their nostrils and pranced and boasted to one another; they were vastly excited, the horse being the only animal who has adopted our ceremonies as his own. Far off to the north and west the mountains stood up half encircling Omelas on her bay. The air of morning was so clear that the snow still crowning the Eighteen Peaks burned with white-gold fire across the miles of sunlit air, under the dark blue of the sky. There was just enough wind to make the banners that marked the racecourse snap and flutter now and then. In the silence of the broad green meadows one could hear the music winding through the city streets, farther and nearer and ever approaching, a cheerful faint sweetness of the air that from time to time trembled and gathered together and broke out into the great joyous clanging of the bells.

Joyous! How is one to tell about joy? How describe the citizens of Omelas?

They were not simple folk, you see, though they were happy. But we do not say the words of cheer much any more. All smiles have become archaic. Given a description such as this one tends to make certain assumptions. Given a description such as this one tends to look next for the King, mounted on a splendid stallion and surrounded by his noble knights, or perhaps in a golden litter borne by great-muscled slaves. But there was no king. They did not use swords, or keep slaves. They were not barbarians. I do not know the rules and laws of their society, but I suspect that they were singularly few. As they did without monarchy and slavery, so they also got on without the stock exchange, the advertisement, the secret police, and the bomb. Yet I repeat that these were not simple folk, not dulcet shepherds, noble savages, bland utopians. They were not less complex than us. The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can't lick 'em, join 'em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe a happy man, nor make any celebration of joy. How can I tell you about the people of Omelas? They were not naive and happy children – though their children were, in fact, happy. They were mature, intelligent, passionate adults whose lives were not wretched. O miracle! but I wish I could describe it better. I wish I could convince you.

Omelas sounds in my words like a city in a fairy tale, long ago and far away, once upon a time. Perhaps it would be best if you imagined it as your own fancy bids, assuming it will rise to the occasion, for certainly I cannot suit you all. ..

..........

https://canvas.wayne.edu/files/3466337/download?download_frd...

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IZDmzk...

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#38
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's spying if you didn't consent to it. There's no explicit consent but the fact you've told your computer to download some code and run it looks a lot like implied consent.

I think that argument proves too much. To a user browsing the web, clicking a link that says "check out this nice article" signifies intention/consent to read that article, not to suffer the effects of all possible JS tripwires including pwning their computer and such.

This is the point I was making about misuse of data. Thinking usage analytics on a website is a tripwire is quite extreme. Thinking that building a complete profile of someone based on their activity on lots of websites is a tripwire is quite reasonable. Hence the difficulty in defining what 'spying' really is.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#39
post #23

What an irony that I open the page source of this article and see this literally on the second line: var mi_track_user = true Then there are all the usual suspects: Google Analytics, Facebook, Twitter and a few others at the bottom. Is this the price I should pay for reading this article for free?

It’s good that authors are free to write about things that might reflect negatively on the underlying technology or business practices of the platform they are being published on.

Re: The Fantasy of Opting Out

#40
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you are downvoted. Think the dangers are real with social credit systems on the rise. Much has been written on them, e.g. > The social credit system is used to punish citizens for bad behavior with numerous blacklists preventing them from traveling, getting loans or jobs, or staying in hotels, and even by limiting internet access. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-b... Maybe…

It already is implemented in America. Political dissidents are harassed by airport security, get their bank accounts closed and credit cards canceled, are banned from services like AirBNB, and get railroaded in the courts.

Source?
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