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Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

deepmind.com

261–270 of 321 posts

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#261
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those might have some impact, but it is clear that the progress is there, with this new APM cap and camera movement etc. You can also see in replays that the AI often makes mechanical mistakes, missing spells, missing units, even ordering wrong units from outside the screen - so it surely seems that if it's win rate was conditioned in any strong way on its sheer mechanical ability, it would have learned to not m…

The mistakes it makes are due to bad decisions. There have been no claims by DeepMind that they have some sort of chaos engineering [1] going on where the AI decides one thing and then the output system actually does another thing. Also I think you overestimate the AI/IT knowledge of these top players that they're consulting. I have great respect towards them, but they're not renaissance men [2] who both play 10 hour…

You're not giving them enough credit. Oriol Vinyals (head of this project) is both one of the leading AI researchers + was highest ranked StarCraft player in Spain back in high school.

Certainly the game is different, meta has changed, etc. But he's definitely not an amateur and is probably in the top percentile of players.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#262
post #58

Has anyone read the actual paper ? This summary really makes it look like "mission accomplished", but this was much much more interesting than that. We saw AI do "obviously stupid things", and we also saw them improve a lot in the middle of the trial, as many youtubers showed. AI was also much more interesting when playing the protoss race, and really felt like it was responding to the opponents actions, and the othe…

IMO it's a testament to how games like SC are collectively and thoroughly "solved" by the community, and how the games aren't that complex after all. I never followed SC or SC2, but my observation of the pro scene and competitive ladder for Warcraft 3 was that cookie cutter strats dominated. Pro players were typically those who executed best, not those who innovated best. Personally I felt disappointed by the fact th…

Former masters Zerg here. You are partially correct, but actual high level play involves a great deal of small variations to these cookie cutter strays, and these small variations lead to a constantly evolving metagame. A good example was the kespa league during hots where innovation and strategy played a big role.

It’s just that a lot of that strategy is irrelevant unless you have amazing mechanics - and the difficulty of those mechanics means that you can’t as easily think, plan, or adapt in-game (because your brain is busy)

A big part of the game is thinking about “how do I win against somebody who does that...” between games

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#263
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually not a single game made pro player realize something new about the game. People are now over saturating their mineral line (making more probes than before), so I don't think that's true.

This is wrong. See posts here from ptitdrogo: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/d4n3tw/alphastar... > People oversaturated in wol and hots because you didn't expand a lot in these games and bases have a lot less minerals in LOTV, not because of some kind of lost knowledge like some comments seem to think here. [...] > Meanwhile alphastar was going 2 gate robo staying on one base making a fuck ton of probes…

Can confirm. I did experiments and math about this years ago- overtraining workers is only good if you know you are about to get severely harassed and plan to lose a bunch

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do understand his point. There are just as many examples of people being so overwhelmed by the new strategy that they don't know how to respond to it and lose. And then learn how to deal with it in later matches. Also, downvoting me for disagreeing is a dick move.

And yet, in Go, the AI adapted to any "weird strategy" and won regardless. The fact that AlphaStar can't is an obvious weakness.

I would say it’s a weakness but I think it’s shared by most players. A ‘weird’ go strategy isn’t going to involve new kinds of pieces on the board or someone developing a win condition at a place on the board you can’t see.

You can lose a Starcraft game easily if someone is doing something novel and you don’t happen to scout the right place on the board soon enough.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#265
post #159

This is a really interesting one to digest. As with previous announcements about AlphaStar, much of the feedback (here and elsewhere) is about the fundamental challenge of assessing human vs. machine in an RTS. These points are very valid - stepping back however, this still feels like a pretty incredible accomplishment. I'm a gold league SC2 player, so maybe in the 30th-50th percentile. Three years ago, when DeepMind…

> This is like if the world's best chess AI had gone from losing high school tournaments to being competitive with Kasparov in less than 3 years. I don't think it's like that at all. On the high level, there is no "chess AI", "go AI", "image classification AI" and "dexterous manipulation AI". These are all sides of the same coin, that gets significantly better every year. Adding support for the new game or new "envir…

>> On the high level, there is no "chess AI", "go AI", "image classification AI" and "dexterous manipulation AI".

As another poster said these are all tasks performed by different systems. For chess and Go AI it's Deep Reinforcement Learning with Monte Carlo Tree Search. For image recognition it's Convolutional Neural Networks. Importantly, these systems are very task-specific. You won't find anyone trying to beat humans at games using CNNs, for example, or using Deep-RL to do text recognition. Far from "a few creative tricks" these are systems that are fundamentally different and are not known to generalise outside their very limited domains. They're one-trick ponies.

The OpenAI paper on "dexterous manipulation" reported learning to manipulate one cube, the same cube, always, after spending a considerable amount of resources on the task. It was a disappointing result that really shouldn't be groupwed with CNNs and Deep-RL for game playing. The level of achievement does not compare well.

>> Anytime a next task is solved, there is a crowd saying it's not a "real AI" and that scientists are solving "toy problems".

This used to be the case a decade or more ago. In the last few years the opposite is true. The press is certainly very eager to report every big success of "AI"- by which of course is meant deep learning.

>> 6 years ago we were able to solve some Atari games from pixels. Today, that feels like a trivial exercise compared to modern techniques

6 years ago DeepMind showed superhuman performance in seven Atari games with Deep-RL (DeepQN in particular): Beam Rider, Breakout, Enduro, Pong, Q*bert, Seaquest and Space Invaders. Since then more Atari games have been "beaten" in the same sense, but many still remain. I'm afraid I can't find references to this but I've seen slides from DeepMind people a few times and there is always a curve with a few games at the top and most games at the bottom, below human performance. There are some games that are notorious for being very difficult to solve with Deep-RL, like Montezuma's Revenge which was claimed to be solved by Uber a couple of years ago however this was done using imitation learning, which means watching a human play. The result is nothing like the result in Go, which remains the crowning achievement of Deep-RL (and its best buddy, MCTS).

Bottom line: Atari games remain anything but a trivial exercise.

And the architectuers that play Atari do not perform as well in Go or chess, say. You are mistaken that it's simple to train the same system to do all of those things. The AlphaZero system that played Go, chess and Shoggi well enough to beat its predecessor (you will excuse me that I don't remember which incarnation of Alpha-x it was) had an architeture fine-tuned to a chessboard and pieces with discrete moves, so it would not be possible to reuse it to play Starcraft, say, or even tic-tac-toe. The cost to train AlphaZero is also very high, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#266
post #200
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is like if the world's best chess AI had gone from losing high school tournaments to being competitive with Kasparov in less than 3 years. I don't think it's like that at all. On the high level, there is no "chess AI", "go AI", "image classification AI" and "dexterous manipulation AI". These are all sides of the same coin, that gets significantly better every year. Adding support for the new game or new "envir…

First of all, nice comment! That said, > Anytime a next task is solved, there is a crowd saying it's not a "real AI" and that scientists are solving "toy problems". Both statements are totally true. But the underlying substance is that each of these toy problems is of increasing complexity and brings us closer and closer to solving the "real problems" I wonder if this is true. This belief may seem like common sense,…

The key thing you're missing is transfer learning. Instead of starting from scratch, you start with a model that was trained to do something and then train it to do something else. It takes much less time and labeled data to get the model to do something similar.

You can even interleave the training for the second task with a few training rounds for the first task to maintain proficiency. There's a group that's using this sorry if technique to make a general "plays videogames" AI. I couldn't find a good link from my phone, but here's a less good link about something similar: https://towardsdatascience.com/everything-you-need-to-know-a...

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#267
post #15

There has always been the issue of interface when playing videogames AI vs human. Either give the human a brain-computer interface or give the AI a mouse, keyboard, monitor, robot hands and a camera. Anything else seems inherently unfair.

Maybe we can train a better AI at turned based strategy games.

I hope Civ5 could open up its API.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#268
post #126

Honestly, the article needs to be replaced with https://deepmind.com/blog/article/AlphaStar-Grandmaster-leve... which actually goes into some technical detail. Nature.com's article is purely for laypersons and, imo, not particularly useful for HN's crowd because of how little insight it gives. It also provides the paper and an archive of all of the AI's matches for anybody who wants to take a closer look. These can b…

This comment was originally posted on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21408024 , but we've merged it into the earlier submission, which used the link you mentioned.

Neat, thanks.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#269
post #205

> Agents were capped at a max of 22 agent actions per 5 seconds, where one agent action corresponds to a selection, an ability and a target unit or point, which counts as up to 3 actions towards the in-game APM counter. Moving the camera also counts as an agent action, despite not being counted towards APM. I'm happy to see that they've greatly improved the APM cap. During the earlier showmatch they had an extremely…

from what I've heard from a starcraft player, what you've just described is just how it is. You don't need good strategies if you have superior techniques (apm & precision). It's not really a game of intelligence (after you've got the basics down).

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#270

From the paper: >Humans play StarCraftthrough a screen that displays only part of the map along with a high-level view of the entire map, to e.g. avoid information overload. The agent interacts with the game through a similar camera-like interface What exactly does that mean? Does it or does it not play by operating purely on image data human players would see on the screen? How much of the system's interaction with…

Everything about AlphaStar is typed and discrete. It has perfect inputs because it uses an API (and does not read pixel data). Human limitations that AlphaStar shares: - Data that requires the camera to see (e.g. enemy location, enemy HP) - Inability to examine/target cloaked units Possibly unfair, super-human things AlphaStar has access to: - Instantaneous awareness of cloaked units - Knowledge of things humans need…

Do you know if it can target a particular unit from a clump of air units? If yes, then there is another "unfair" thing.

Also I wonder how their "camera-like interface" works with tactics like fly a building above units to make them harder to target.

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