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GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

latimes.com

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Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#491

Post by malvosenior »

rtpg wrote: post #487
slykat wrote: post #381

I find it ironic that the same people protesting the contract would also protest a bakery that refuses to sell a product for say a same sex couple (or if you were in the 60s, restaurants that refused to serve blacks). You either have a viewpoint that: 1) a business shouldn't make a moral judgement on its customers and be accessible to all 2) A business can make moral judgements on its customers and choose not to do b…

This is a false dicothomy The actual (IMO correct) position most of these people share is the following two points at once: - businesses should have a moral position, since businesses are just a set of people - that moral position should be right! This isn’t rocket science! Stuff like “don’t support a business doing bad stuff” and “support businesses doing good stuff” is just really basic consumer activism. There’s n…

Many, many people feel that enforcing existing immigration laws is morally right and a "good thing".

I think defining what is morally right is harder than rocket science and literally impossible in some cases.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#492

Post by bcheung »

dandanqu82 wrote: post #464
tomschlick wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like that lawsuit is alleging that prisoners only making $1-4 a day is slave labor when to my knowledge that's common in almost all prisons in the US. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/ That's not to say its a good practice or policy but nothing there looks like its any different for ICE detainees.

The 13th amendment abolished slavery for everyone except prisoners. The fact that migrants are being treated like prison labor is evidence that they are performing slave labor.

Slavery is still allowed for jury duty as well. You are forced to work and if you don't go they can throw you in prison and/or fine you.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#493

Post by rtpg »

tomschlick wrote: post #355
supernova87a wrote: post #348

I question how much an employee should concern him/herself with how a product is used once it's created. You have to let certain control go after a point. Or if your product is open to everyone, you'll have to live with the fact that people may use it in ways you disagree with. Xerox or Canon (or whoever) probably makes copiers that ICE uses to make copies. Lenovo or Apple probably makes hardware that they use also t…

> Why don't the employees at all these other companies object like Github employees? Why do Github employees get a special right to withhold consent for their product to be used in a setting they might object to? Why is ICE the only company that they object to? Why do some causes get their favor and not others? Wokeness and the recent trend of trying to cancel anything that doesn't align within a narrow spectrum of p…

But also other company employees are protesting! There have been news stories for multiple employee protests (including Delta refusing to deport some people)

Maybe you and GP are not seeing the stories because the outlets you read choose not to cover this

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#494

Post by Sophistifunk »

rtpg wrote: post #487
slykat wrote: post #381

I find it ironic that the same people protesting the contract would also protest a bakery that refuses to sell a product for say a same sex couple (or if you were in the 60s, restaurants that refused to serve blacks). You either have a viewpoint that: 1) a business shouldn't make a moral judgement on its customers and be accessible to all 2) A business can make moral judgements on its customers and choose not to do b…

This is a false dicothomy The actual (IMO correct) position most of these people share is the following two points at once: - businesses should have a moral position, since businesses are just a set of people - that moral position should be right! This isn’t rocket science! Stuff like “don’t support a business doing bad stuff” and “support businesses doing good stuff” is just really basic consumer activism. There’s n…

> - that moral position should be right

You do realise that what this actually means is "this person agrees with me"

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#495

Post by mikekchar »

dcposch wrote: post #473
supernova87a wrote: post #348

I question how much an employee should concern him/herself with how a product is used once it's created. You have to let certain control go after a point. Or if your product is open to everyone, you'll have to live with the fact that people may use it in ways you disagree with. Xerox or Canon (or whoever) probably makes copiers that ICE uses to make copies. Lenovo or Apple probably makes hardware that they use also t…

> I question how much an employee should concern him/herself with how a product is used > Where do we start? Where do we stop? Often when moral question pops up on HN, the top comment is some variation of > But where do we we draw the line? > I wonder whether we should even try. Counterpoint: cynicism is too easy. Actually giving a shit is harder, it's uncomfortable, it involves compromise. Yes, there's ambiguity. Ye…

On the other hand, I'm one of those Free Software guys that believes that the software I write should be able to be used by anyone, for any purpose. One of the problems with causing shit storms in at your place of employment because they don't follow your preferred political views is that these views are divergent.

No matter what thing you are talking about, whether technical or political decision, a decision has to be made. Once it is made, as an employee, I think you've got to either go with it or decide to go somewhere else (perhaps starting your own company if you need to). I say this as a person who obviously holds a minority point of view in most of the companies I've worked for ;-)

At the end of the day, you've got to decide if you are aligned with the ideals of the employer you work for or not. Making suggestions is one thing, but trying to put political pressure on your employer to act in a particular manner is something I would advise people to refrain from.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#496

Post by TomMckenny »

supernova87a wrote: post #348

I question how much an employee should concern him/herself with how a product is used once it's created. You have to let certain control go after a point. Or if your product is open to everyone, you'll have to live with the fact that people may use it in ways you disagree with. Xerox or Canon (or whoever) probably makes copiers that ICE uses to make copies. Lenovo or Apple probably makes hardware that they use also t…

Perhaps you start here and not stop until a government and it's agencies cease abusive practices.

The counter question is how much should a person turn a blind eye (and so implicitly endorse) the uses of your product?

In this case at least, there was a donation made that would not have happened otherwise.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#497

Post by edflsafoiewq »

wil421 wrote: post #461
dunstad wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_inte... From the article: > In 2019, many experts, including Andrea Pitzer, the author of One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps, have acknowledged the designation of the detention centers as "concentration camps" [227] [228] particularly given that the centers, previously cited by Texas officials for more than 150 health violations [229] and re…

41,000 deaths in Dachau.[1] 15 deaths in ICE detention centers.[2] If you add 2017 it would be about 25.[3] I have family who immigrated to the US last year with their children. We have the largest immigrant population and we want people to come here.[4] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp [2] https://www.ice.gov/death-detainee-report#wcm-survey-target-... [3] https://www.cato.org/blog/annua…

There always seems to be a conflation of concentration camps with Nazi death camps in these discussions. ICE running concentration camps (a facility for holding "people, commonly in large groups, without charges") seems wholly unremarkable.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#498

Post by CamperBob2 »

slykat wrote: post #425
dunstad wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I would love that actually. ICE runs concentration camps. Not enough people treat them how they deserve.

Ok so would you ok with a restaurant not serving republicans because the party currently supports ICE's actions?

Political alignment isn't a protected class.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#499

Post by dragonwriter »

shaftoe wrote: post #415
p1necone wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "narrow spectrum of progressive viewpoints" Oh fuck off, the way the US government is currently treating asylum seekers and immigrants is horrifying. Only within the bubble of American politics could someone brush complaining about it off like that.

These aren't people fleeing genocide. These are people leaving Mexico. And they're being put in hotels and buses. It's easy to pretend you're fellow Americans are monsters, but they're not.

> These aren't people fleeing genocide. These are people leaving Mexico.

No, they are people fleeing violence in Central America through Mexico, in large part.

That violence, incidentally, is in substantial part resulting from the US training nonviolent drug war criminals into extremely violent criminals in its original and then deporting then to Central America what they have no substantial roots.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#500

Post by manigandham »

rtpg wrote: post #487
slykat wrote: post #381

I find it ironic that the same people protesting the contract would also protest a bakery that refuses to sell a product for say a same sex couple (or if you were in the 60s, restaurants that refused to serve blacks). You either have a viewpoint that: 1) a business shouldn't make a moral judgement on its customers and be accessible to all 2) A business can make moral judgements on its customers and choose not to do b…

This is a false dicothomy The actual (IMO correct) position most of these people share is the following two points at once: - businesses should have a moral position, since businesses are just a set of people - that moral position should be right! This isn’t rocket science! Stuff like “don’t support a business doing bad stuff” and “support businesses doing good stuff” is just really basic consumer activism. There’s n…

The whole point of morality is that it is subjective. You can not determine what is right as a rule.
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