Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor • Hacker News Board

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#71

Post by p4bl0 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:42 AM UTC

generationP wrote: post #65

p4bl0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First we do not agree on free education. I believe that's a good thing. Now, what Macron's government did wrong with research and higher education is: literally everything they did about it. The switch to high tuition as you said (especially given that it was only for foreigners , which I consider racist, and anyway the Conseil Constitutionnel recently found this measure unconstitutional). Parcoursup was a very bad d…

I'm curious, what's been going on with Parcoursup? (I don't read enough French to understand the discussions.) Also, I'm not surprised that tuition for foreigners is a lever they are pulling. A government is responsible, first and foremost, to its own citizens. Racism? Really? What about "localism" or "separation of duties"?

See my answer to one of your sibling comments.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#72

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:42 AM UTC

p4bl0 wrote: post #21

He is already an elected representative in the French parliament, being part of the current government's majority. His political party and the government have already passed several laws that are very damaging to research and higher education (among other things, but these two topics Villani actually knows something about, and he should care a bit given his background). He has never said anything publicly about it, o…

Trying to get foreign students (outside of EU) to pay tuition fees in university is not damaging to anything. On the contrary, it is flabbergasting that they get free tuition at the moment.

Of course the issue is that free tuition has just been ruled to be a constitutional requirement and changing the constitution is a big hurdle.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#73

Post by hoseja » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:00 AM UTC

p4bl0 wrote: post #21

He is already an elected representative in the French parliament, being part of the current government's majority. His political party and the government have already passed several laws that are very damaging to research and higher education (among other things, but these two topics Villani actually knows something about, and he should care a bit given his background). He has never said anything publicly about it, o…

Reminds me of Merkel, the nuclear physicist.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#74

Post by julienreszka » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

billfruit wrote: post #57

I have always wondered at the popularity of the first name Cedric, because the name was newly coined(in the early 1800s) by Walter Scott in his novel Ivanhoe, for the character Cedric of Rotherwood, a Saxon chief, and is not a historically relevant name.

Close enough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#75

Post by jcelerier » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:05 AM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #41

syrusakbary wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that heresy. A terrible idea from what perspective? I'd love to hear more! (I'm on the other side of the spectrum)

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

> Further, some of the most expensive schools are some of the worst schools. I don't think we should be paying an unlimited amount of money for the same education. If the University of Pittsburgh can deliver results much better than USC (I'm not saying it can, this is a hypothetical) -- I don't think you should be able to get $70k a year to go to USC when you can study the same thing with better results at Pittsburgh for $20k.

But in France all the good universities are the public ones, and they are all roughly the same price (e.g. the Bordeaux one is roughly 250€ per year for undegrads and 500€ per year for graduates -- or 15€ if you have a scolarship).

> I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year. I can pay for it my fucking self if I want to.

50% of the people in france make under the median salary which is around 20150€ post-tax per year. Most people "couldn't pay it for their fucking self" (and were you making 400k$ when you were 16 y.o. which is the age you could start university if you're quite good and skipped a class or two ?)

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#76

Post by song » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:09 AM UTC

p4bl0 wrote: post #35

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dommageable" is "damaging", for anyone who couldn't guess. Can you go into detail about what his party has voted for that's so bad for higher education and research? I consider myself pretty academia-friendly, and there's a lot of things I'd vote for that most people would consider damaging to higher education and research. For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that…

First we do not agree on free education. I believe that's a good thing. Now, what Macron's government did wrong with research and higher education is: literally everything they did about it. The switch to high tuition as you said (especially given that it was only for foreigners , which I consider racist, and anyway the Conseil Constitutionnel recently found this measure unconstitutional). Parcoursup was a very bad d…

What I've never understood is why not just create an other ranking that competes with the Shanghai ranking. I wish polytechnique or some other institution of high learning published their own ranking and marketed it as well as that ranking was marketed.

You are right, it's pure bullshit and heavily favors big institutions rather than small ones which does mean that French style grande écoles are penalized but the solution isn't to conform to it but instead to change the way universities is ranked.

I have also been very disappointed with Macron's policies when it comes to education. The higher tuition for foreigners is also I believe a mistake since it is good for a country when highly educated foreigners come to study there. France is at a disadvantage when attracting foreign talents due to the language barrier but could compensate for it thanks to the low tuitions. Now with those changes, it will become harder and diminish the cultural influence that France had. Not a good long term move.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#77

Post by _fizz_buzz_ » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:39 AM UTC

p4bl0 wrote: post #21

He is already an elected representative in the French parliament, being part of the current government's majority. His political party and the government have already passed several laws that are very damaging to research and higher education (among other things, but these two topics Villani actually knows something about, and he should care a bit given his background). He has never said anything publicly about it, o…

I don't like your comment for several reasons>

1.) You don't provide any example how he damaged academia. It lacks substance.

2.) "he doesn't care at all about being a mathematician (well, except when it gives him credit he doesn't deserve)" That bit of character assassination is unnecessary. He is obviously one of the most accomplished Mathematicians alive.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#78

Post by qmmmur » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:56 AM UTC

LeanderK wrote: post #63

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

I think it will be the death of society and culture if rank areas of study by ROI. Businesses need engineers and accountants, but society needs philosophers, artists, musicians and social scientists. It's about the balance between those two. Actually, I am not sure what its like in the United States. Are only the rich allowed to study art or theater?

Pretty much and it's why there is a huge cultural exodus to Europe from America

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#79

Post by crocal » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:14 AM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #62

flashyfaffe2 wrote: post #9

Being a former Parisian, I can object here you can be a medal fields winner and not having a clue about economic problem. Paris is facing quite sensible issues right now ( higher debt, untidy streets, insecurity,etc...) and for now all he's proposing here is very similar to what any others politician would offer to get elected. Parisians need some radical changements and for now I haven't heard anything from him tack…

> Paris is facing quite sensible issues right now ( higher debt, untidy streets, insecurity,etc...) Most of these problems stem from national-level irresponsible policies such as uncontrolled immigration. They won't be fixed by the mayor alone, and they plague most big and even medium cities in the country.

As far as I can judge, the problem of untidy streets and insecurity in Paris have nothing to do with "uncontrolled immigration". Do you have some evidence supporting your statement?

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#80

Post by theobeers » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:54 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #72

p4bl0 wrote: post #21

He is already an elected representative in the French parliament, being part of the current government's majority. His political party and the government have already passed several laws that are very damaging to research and higher education (among other things, but these two topics Villani actually knows something about, and he should care a bit given his background). He has never said anything publicly about it, o…

Trying to get foreign students (outside of EU) to pay tuition fees in university is not damaging to anything. On the contrary, it is flabbergasting that they get free tuition at the moment. Of course the issue is that free tuition has just been ruled to be a constitutional requirement and changing the constitution is a big hurdle.

We can think about this in a more nuanced way. The language of instruction, for example, is an important consideration. If foreign students are going to pursue degrees in France, in programs where the coursework is exclusively or primarily in French, then why not offer them the normal tuition-free deal? It would benefit French culture and France’s economy, while also respecting the fact that most of the students in question would come from former colonies.

English-language degree programs (thinking of other European countries) are a different story. There you end up with a situation that is more parasitic or exploitative.