Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says • Hacker News Board

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#371

Post by harry8 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:59 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #367

larrywright wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, Glenn Greenwald would probably be where I’d turn to. I’d trust him as a journalist, for sure. There aren’t a ton of them who’ve publicly demonstrated how they handle something of this importance (Woodward and Bernstein are the only other two I can come up with off the top of my head).

Assange - for which I will get hate. He will publish, in full at considerable personal cost. I don't think there are any credible accusations about him doing anything else, ever. You can still hate him for whatever reasons you have and expect him to do just that. Have you seen Greenwalds thoughts on Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. I'm not sure they should still be on that list... Maybe, but there's some doubt. More…

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/10/mannin...

Wherin Greenwald describes Woodward as follows:

"Bob Woodward is a servant-journalist for US government officials."

That's not pulling punches. Is it fair?

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#372

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:59 AM UTC

turtlecloud wrote: post #331

jjeaff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, two cameras failing at the same time right before he incident seems very suspicious. But is that the case? Seems more likely both cameras were broken and had been for a long time and were never fixed. How many other cameras in the facility were broken? If cameras are broken, how would you ever learn that they are broken? Perhaps it would require an important event like a suicide to occur so that you would need…

most likely the power line to the cameras were cut or interfered with. They should both be on the same network and it should not be difficult to disable if knowing about the security system before hand.

It wasn’t, so there goes the silly conspiracy theory.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#373

Post by friendlybus » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:11 AM UTC

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

Are we supposed to believe they didn't kill him? They took off suicide watch. The authorities are responsible for his well being. As others have said they go to insane degrees to prevent suicide. It's either death through negligence or active killing. If you take his moment of physical death out of the equation, the story around his legal protection and then lack of it was enough to kill him.

I don't think there's much of a story in the end of the Epstein case. The only people that know aren't going to say anything until it's a footnote in the history books. The conservatives peso hunt comes to a close and metoo had Weinstein. Who knows what crimes they committed against the powers that be, if any. I don't know.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#374

Post by stickfigure » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

magduf wrote: post #294

stickfigure wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think the cameras were working beforehand? They could have been this way for months or years. What percentage of cameras on BART trains are working at any given time? When was the last time you tested your backups?

If they had been broken for a long time before this, why would they put the highest-profile prisoner in the entire country in there without fixing them first, or moving him to a cell where the cameras do work?

The simple answer is that's just not how bureaucracies work.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#375

Post by lazyasciiart » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

slimed wrote: post #358

lazyasciiart wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he is the 20th prisoner in federal custody to commit suicide in a year? Because people routinely kill themselves even in supermax jails? Because 4-5 people attempt suicide in that prison every year and it'd be even more surprising if they were perfect at preventing it? Because they weren't allowed to hire new staff since Sessions froze hiring in 2017, until April, and their staffing levels went well down over…

Nice edit Edit: I don't debate publicly with those who change their arguments after posting and don't call it out

Not an edit: you are making things up.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#376

Post by lazyasciiart » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:59 AM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #357

lazyasciiart wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2018, Britain refused to extradite a guy to the US because he would have been held in either this prison or it's Brooklyn equivalent (the one where prisoners were left without heat or electricity in the storm this year), and they said it was too likely that he would commit suicide given the terrible conditions and lack of care ( https://gothamist.com/news/prisoners-endure-a-nightmare-gula... ). Guards at this pris…

What is "ignorant" is pointing to the prison conditions of the poor and relatively unknown mass of prisoners and then asserting that we should have expected the same thing for Jeffrey Epstein. He was worth hundreds of millions of dollars (allegedly, at least), and when people of that level of wealth are imprisoned at all, it is at some Club Fed facility where they're relatively comfortable and well protected. In fact…

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. For a start, this facility only holds people who have not yet had a trial. "Normally", wealthy people like him are not held in detention at all while waiting for their trial - like Martha Stewart.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#377

Post by harry8 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:21 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #368

ok so, tinfoil hat - absolutely, how sure are we that the body was actually his?

I'm assuming that this is so obvious that it's considered not worth discussing, which is fine. I'd just like to know how are we sure that it's his body? What is the evidence for that? Is it just too hard to fake it and get away with it? Too James Bong (well it is, sure) but how do we know that's not possible?

I'm prepared to believe it but I'm suddenly just really reluctant to believe anything about this case without evidence.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#378

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:22 AM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #208

ScottFree wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm don't buy into conspiracy theories I do. How many "conspiracy theories" have we lived through in tech? I can name two right off the top of my head: prism and carnivore. Whenever there's an overwhelming chorus of "that's conspiracy theory!" what I hear is "don't look too closely! You might find something!"

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#379

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

542458 wrote: post #19

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

> killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility Ken White (famous-ish lawyer and notable internet personality) puts it this way: "But your assessment of plausibility is based on your assumptions about how the system works. Those assumptions are, mostly, wrong — naive Dick-Wolf-level law-enforcement-are-competent-good-guys stuff". Prisons, particularly american prisons, are full of…

It is true that prisons are not exactly healthy environments, prison guards are not exactly loving companions, obsessed with inmate's wellbeing, and that many of them are careless and/or incompetent. And sometimes deliberately cruel and criminal. However, the case of Epstein is one of the major scandals of the century. He's not a random stoner police picked up. He's somebody whose name has been on the front pages of every newspaper for months. In this condition, either everybody in the prison system are blithering idiots, or somebody took care that Epstein would be surrounded by specific idiots at specific time. And then plausibly denied all involvement - we have idiots, what can you do. If you start counting how many times government officials used this excuse - we're just idiots, you know, can't blame us - to successfully escape responsibility for corruption, fraud and blatant criminal behavior. True, murder requires special hutzpah - but that also doesn't happen every day. Now it happened.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#380

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 6:01 AM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #183

apetresc wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in some more run-of-the-mill cases, sure. But even the dimmest staff member must have been well aware that this particular pedophile was on the verge of testifying against an entire network of other pedophiles. If you hate pedophiles so much you're willing to risk your life/career just to let one of them commit suicide, surely you also hate them enough to wait just a little bit longer to prevent a bunch more of…

They were sleeping through their shift because that's just what prison guards frequently do. They were doing a lot of overtime, partly because the prison is understaffed and partly because you make a lot of money signing up for overtime. They were tired, and nobody watches the watchers. Why do you think that sleeping through overtime would be a case of the guards risking their life? I doubt they've even been fired.

If nobody watched them, how do we know they slept through their shift, and if they did, how do we know they did it because they were tired and not because somebody asked them to sleep for a while and not worry about a thing, and that part of overtime would be paid at much, much different rate?

> I doubt they've even been fired.

Especially in this situation. We have huge motive, excellent opportunity and unless one of the guards is so stupid as to talk, almost no possibility of detection. A perfect crime, if there's one. Of course, there's no proof of that - maybe Epstein indeed was suicidal. Maybe the guards were just paid to give him an opportunity, not avoid witnessing murder. Who knows. But I don't see how guards sleeping excludes any of that.