Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says • Hacker News Board

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#321

Post by Consultant32452 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #60

claudeganon wrote: post #36

Epstein’s death seems the most overt taunt about ruling class impunity in my lifetime. Not only in its circumstances, but in the kind of shifting, threadbare cover stories about everyone with whom he was associated. Bill Gates, for example, had staff overlap between his foundation and Epstein, (including one who was named in Epstein’s will!) and was able to diminish these connections in major media outlets with almos…

Epstein's ability to carry in his activities with near impunity during his life seems even more shocking to me. Pretty much everyone knew what this guy was doing for decades.

I agree with this notion from Eric Weinstein. This comment was in response to an article by NYT which glossed over the horrors. Of course, this criticism isn't particular to NYT.

>We need a second Church committee. Obviously.

>If you don't want to call for one, then tell us why in an editorial. Why doesn't this recent pattern of state-protected child rape excite you as much as 17th century slavery? This story would sell newspapers & subscriptions. Let it.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#322

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #269

arbitrage wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're blithely accepting the word of an expert who was paid to investigate the official autopsy, on behalf of Epstein's brother? Have any sources, etc.?

Sources for what exactly? I never said that. What I said is that we have a very well credentialed and highly experienced expert saying A, and then we have random internet guy contradicting him with nothing to support his claims. You think taking what you say at face value would be the reasonable thing to do?

Why wouldn't you take the word of the well credentialed expert that did the actual investigation and pronounced it suicide?

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#323

Post by malvosenior » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #317

CharlesColeman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I'd be interested in learning about what techniques they use, since they seem like something that ought to be countered.

Read "Catch and Kill" by Ronan Farrow, regarding his experience with Weinstein's campaign against the publication of his crimes. It's exactly what you're asking for (the title is the technique's name), It's also a rather entertaining read.

Ronan Farrow also did amazing investigative journalism on Epstein and revealed the extent of Joi Ito, MIT and some of Bill Gates' relationship with Epstein.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-an-elite-univer...

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#324

Post by rdtsc » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #176

rdtsc wrote: post #69

I don't know if he killed himself or not, but it sure looks suspicious. The expectation is that there would be a flurry of investigative journalism lasting perhaps months, by different media organizations trying to uncover how he got his money, who flew to his island, or other properties, how many victims he had, interview with his house keepers, lawyers, Ghislaine Maxwell etc. But except for very few news items, the…

> but that some paramedic or bystander took a picture of Epstein's body as it was wheeled out and posted it on 4chan. And how it was an egregious violation of HIPPA and FDNY should look into investigating that Apropos of all the other things going on in this case - which lets be honest, were getting plenty of news play - why is this article odd? Because, as a paramedic - fuck whomever did that. I don't care who it is…

> Apropos of all the other things going on in this case - which lets be honest, were getting plenty of news play - why is this article odd?

Because when it came to this story, most people, who are not paramedics would expect a lot more investigative information around Epstein's story besides the fact that his dead picture leaked to some dark web site full disgusting images.

Let's say they followed up the article with another 5 or 10 analyzing the flight logs, unsealed court documents, tried to interview his associates, looked at all his properties, see maybe other inmates heard anything that night. But it didn't happen, it was mostly dropped and instead they called FDNY to ensure there is investigation into the leaked pictures.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#325

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #188

lukifer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree, I think it’s worth teasing apart the “They” in this line of thinking. The conspiracy/Illuminati narratives imply a singular, unified cabal of power, which is a very difficult thing to achieve. But I think is more likely, is a loosely coupled system of mutual benefit with many players and imperfect knowledge, but all of whom are incentivized to (or selected for) not rocking the boat too much. Elizabeth…

In the case of Epstein, it appears that NY Dept of Corrections and the coroner must both be colluding to make the suicide narrative plausible. There must be some level of coordinated pressure exerted on both of these offices for neither to highlight the inconsistencies. What would be more concerning: a governmental agency or a non-governmental organization having this kind of power?

No, it doesn't - it was a federal prison and the NY DoC has nothing to do with it. And no, even if you buy into the idea that he was killed, there is no collusion needed to make it a plausible narrative, you just have to have the strangulation done competently enough to look like hanging.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#326

Post by topkai22 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:29 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #311

topkai22 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"1 suicide and 3 attempted suicides"- that's actually both an insanely low attempt rate and an insanely high completion rate/attempt.

That means that most people didn't even figure out how to attempt one, because the means were taken away. You should compare with suicides/suicide attempt rates in general population (or general prison population) to make this statement.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/19/health/prison-suicides-massac...

General prison suicide rate is 20/100,000, which is almost identical to the male general population rate in the US (21.1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...)

I didn't quickly get data on attempt/completion in prison, but the attempt/completion rate is the general pop is ~30 attempts/completion, and the completion rate is dramatically driven up with access to firearms. (https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/) I'd expect to see a lower completion/attempt rate in prison, not a higher one, given the monitoring and reduced access to methods.

I stand by my statement- something is funny with the way they reported that data.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#327

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #292

thrower123 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot believe that he didn't have a deadman switch set up just in case something like this happened to him. Somewhere or wheres, there has to be a couple boxes of hard drives that could burn the world down if they ever came to light. Although I may be being optimistic; the Panama Papers never amounted to anything.

After he was arrested the FBI raided his mansion and took into its possession a large cache of CDs labeled "young with " which he kept in his safe. There were also hints that people visited his private island and his New Mexico ranch (which the FBI bizarrely still has not raided) before he was killed. So they may have confiscated the materials for any dead man's switch. Also, if Epstein was indeed an intelligence age…

[deleted]

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#328

Post by paulcole » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

ScottFree wrote: post #268

paulcole wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon the bluntness, but your argument is equally weak. > Whenever I hear an overwhelming chorus of "that's conspiracy theory!" what I hear is "don't look too closely! You might find something!"

That's not an argument. My argument was the preceding statement. Maybe you should work on identifying what is and is not an argument before attempting to formulate your own.

How was my comment even an argument? More of an observation that you likely have a theory you don’t stand behind except when it validates your existing beliefs.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#329

Post by shsjxjbsbs » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

Teever wrote: post #307

CharlesColeman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I'd be interested in learning about what techniques they use, since they seem like something that ought to be countered.

An interesting comment that I've seen repeated and voted to the top of any post on reddit regarding the Gates-Epstein association is something along the lines of 'Gates is too aloof and nerdy to be interested in the wares that Epstein was peddling.' I've seen it many times and it has always struck me as the kind of spin that PR firm would write and disseminate.

If you see people expressing an opinion that’s useful for the rich and powerful, it’s appealing to imagine that the people expressing that opinion are shills. But I think saying such out loud lowers the quality of discourse. If we go around accusing one people we disagree with of being shills, we aren’t learning or participating in an exchange of ideas, which is the point of a discussion forum like this.

There’s a perfectly sound explanation for those posts that seem “shillish”: sincerely held beliefs that are different from yours. I think fanboyism and ideology motivate a lot more people to argue on the internet than money. If you want proof of this, look at all the teeming masses arguing for all sorts of causes that the rich and powerful don’t care about.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#330

Post by admax88q » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:40 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

The takeaway from that story for me is that people will go insane lengths to commit suicide, though means nobody would have even thought of, and law enforcement just removes each mechanism as it's discovered.