Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#361

Post by kuschku » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 6:54 PM UTC

yxhuvud wrote: post #249

kuschku wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting part is that the 13 years sentence might actually be illegal, and won’t hold up against an EU court. As Puigdemont was in Schleswig-Holstein in Germany at the moment of the arrest, German law limits the crimes for which Spain could extradite him, and limits the maximum sentence Spain can enforce, per the extradition agreement. This also applies to the cases which happened after the extradition. One ca…

> One can speculate why he specifically chose Schleswig-Holstein, but it’s the only region in Europe where, 1920, due to a peaceful referendum How was the split of Czechoslovakia done?

According to Wikipedia, that was done without a referendum:

> Public perception of the dissolution has not changed much, with a December 2017 poll showing that just 42% of Czechs and 40% of Slovaks agree with what happened (compared to 36% and 37% in 1992, respectively). According to Czech political analyst Lubomir Kopeček, many Czechs and Slovaks view the breakup process unfavourably because they had no say in the matter. Most people would have rather had a referendum decide.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#362

Post by ErneX » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

snvzz wrote: post #346

ErneX wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There hasn't been a binding referendum because a secession referendum does not legally exists in the current constitution. If the pro-independence side calls for these referendums and we all know those are non-binding, the only turnout those will have are of those who are in favor of secession. Those results cannot be taken in any way seriously.

>the only turnout those will have are of those who are in favor of secession There was plenty of turnover, and plenty of No votes, in the referendum famous for the use of force by the Spanish "Guardia Civil" police. There just happened to be a lot more Yes votes. Like how people voted in another pro-independence government again in the Catalan elections organized by the Spanish government after they forcibly disolved…

In no way those non binding events had significant participation from the side that does not want to split from Spain.

Plus there was no active voting census and people could vote multiple times, you can't seriously consider the turnout from those events as valid in any way.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#363

Post by zadkey » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

iagovar wrote: post #62

banjodeluxe wrote: post #35

For a bit of context I'll leave my two cents here trying to be as objective as possible, leaving politics out of it as much as I can. Following the judge's veredict of the Catalan politicians who coordinated the "proces", or series of political movements to attempt to secede Catalonia from Spain; demonstrations have arisen within Catalonia protesting said judgement - the politicians were essentially deemed as conspir…

IMO the accusation of terrorism is too much, but honestly some of the actions are worrying. I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from, but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for. But I also understand what different police forces are facing. You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and…

What in your views would you say are valid grounds to seek independence?

If you are going to say Catalonia shouldn't seek independence, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on the ethical criteria to seek independence?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#364

Post by hyperman1 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

davidito wrote: post #304

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

So basically the english 'keep the information'. You can keep it as in not give it to someone else, or keep it as in preserve it. For physical objects this makes no difference.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#365

Post by severino » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

davidito wrote: post #304

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

But who ever said it was Github that translated the official note? They just posted the request, it wouldn't be official if they made the translation.

I guess identifying yourself as a "Native speaker of Castillian Spanish" is more important to be aware of your biased opinions on this subject, than of your knowledge of the language :P

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#366

Post by rolltiide » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

who cares where is the mirror?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#367

Post by billiam » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

EthanHeilman wrote: post #356

zozbot234 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. Well, as both Americans and Spanish might say, "we had a war to settle that issue." The U.S. have been a republic (what you call a "democracy") for the entirety of their history as a nation, and yet unilateral secession is clearly forbidden.

I do not buy the argument that unilateral secession is clearly forbidden in the US and I don't think the American Civil War settled that point. The Confederates stood a decent legal chance to secede from the Union. It was a constitution crisis. Instead the Confederates choose to throw constitutional avenues away and engage in a war of aggression against the North. The South didn't need to raise armies and launch an a…

I'm sorry but your misreading of American history is substantial. Texas v. White in 1869 made official that which Shay's Rebellion, the annexation of the Texas Republic, and the Civil War had established by actions--that secession in the US is illegal.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#368

Post by davidito » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

pera wrote: post #358

davidito wrote: post #304

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

"retener" is indeed ambiguous, but in the sentence right before that paragraph they use "retenga" as "to withhold": > Además, se han creado otros repositorios con la misma información para evitar que el contenido se retenga. So I'm inclined to believe that the translation is correct. (I'm also a Castilian Spanish speaker :)

That's a good point. But this is not the actual court order, merely an explanatory letter from a police agency. The language is very "squishy". The preamble to the actual order, where the police explain the rationale, indeed uses the verb "retener" to mean "withhold/block". But the last sentence, if read alone, make more sense as "preserve." I believe this "squishiness" is no accident.

We really need to see the actual court order. Github has not included it in this repo.

Does anybody know how to access Spanish court orders online? Are they public?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#369

Post by reallydontask » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

mindB wrote: post #336

reallydontask wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I highly value freedom of expression, and to me it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Most governments ( no doubt, yours too), want companies operating under their jurisdiction to…

>Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Absolutely. Companies and the individuals who make up companies should not comply with unethical laws just as people at large should not comply with unethical laws. Ethics stands above the law.

>Ethics stands above the law

This is pretty naive

Who decides what is ethical? I might think it's unethical to finance my government given its record of military adventures around the world. Does that mean that I'm off the hook on income tax?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#370

Post by reallydontask » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

gerardvivancos wrote: post #266

reallydontask wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain, unlike the UK, has a written constitution, in which the indivisibility of the state is stated. This means that the first step for any region to legally have any chance of leaving Spain is to change the constitution, which needs bigger than simple majorities (3/5 or 2/3 depending on the procedure), so it's unlikely that this will happen any time soon. The people that organised the referendum knew this and still…

The referendum can happen anyway and the application of the result can be done by modifying the Constitution. Let's be honest, the only reason not to allow the referendum is that the Spanish Gvnt. does not want it to happen.

That is one reason.

The other reason is that you'd be hard pressed to find a 3/5 or 2/3 support in parliament for amending the constitution so that the state is no longer indivisible.