Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#291

Post by yiyus » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #276

rtkwe wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just the way nation-states are setup, as part of being in the union constituent states give up part of their autonomy. This happens all the way down the governmental ladder. The other states (or regions I'm not sure how Spain is divided so I'll just say states) also definitely have an interest in maintaining the integrity of the whole nation. Over the years money has flowed both ways both from the other states t…

That's all fine and dandy, but it presumes the participating states actually want to be part of the union. Otherwise it's tyranny in my humble opinion.

We have a constitution that was voted in referendum in 1978. Most people in Catalonia voted in favor of these constitution, and Catalan parties have been an essential part of the governments we have had since then. Moreover, not even half of people in Catalonia (more or less) want independence.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#292

Post by NeedMoreTea » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #120

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK "government" is generally taken to mean the executive who are also part of the legislature (parliament), but not judiciary. UK Judiciary separation appears to be far stronger than in the US viewed from here in the UK.

Ah, I didn't know that. Well both HN and Github are US sites, not UK, so the title is accurate in this context.

"English speaking world" is a tad wider than US specific - many of whom stick with a variation on the Westminster model. ;)

From the context of this subthread seems like the Spanish think of government as executive and legislature, with judiciary separate too.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#293

Post by ErneX » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

iagovar wrote: post #103

deltron3030 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. I don't think I'm in position to have a long discussion about this in english, but I thought about it and reached no conclussion. If I'm against the Catalan independence it's basically because of practical…

Constitution reform is the only way and yet lots of people keep pointing to other things, this is the reason we are stuck in this situation now. That road is long and requires actual politics, what they have done is taking a shortcut to nowhere.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#294

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

romaaeterna wrote: post #137

cfv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house…

Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule. Plato's Crito has Socrates make the point that, even sentenced to death, he was bound to respect the laws of Athens as he was someone who had made the voluntary choice to remain in the city all of his life until then and under those laws.

[deleted]

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#295

Post by tempguy9999 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

iagovar wrote: post #62

banjodeluxe wrote: post #35

For a bit of context I'll leave my two cents here trying to be as objective as possible, leaving politics out of it as much as I can. Following the judge's veredict of the Catalan politicians who coordinated the "proces", or series of political movements to attempt to secede Catalonia from Spain; demonstrations have arisen within Catalonia protesting said judgement - the politicians were essentially deemed as conspir…

IMO the accusation of terrorism is too much, but honestly some of the actions are worrying. I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from, but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for. But I also understand what different police forces are facing. You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and…

I am not at all familiar with this situation, but these quotes

> but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for

and

> But I also understand what different police forces are facing

gives the impression the police may be paying the price for some politicians' bad decisions.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#296

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

iagovar wrote: post #91

zozbot234 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it depends how many people are involved in such things, and whether the app specifically is allowing them to coordinate these attacks. Most of the commentary so far has been about demonstrations, sometimes turning into violent riots. Purposely sabotaging/obstructing a piece of critical infrastructure is something rather different, although whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous.

> whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous. I won't define it as terrorism, but if you are in the Police and you really have no other legal tool, what do you do? If the boundary is fuzzy enough, they're gonna push for it. In the end they'll probably have a hard time proving that to a judge, but as a temporary measure they probably think it's useful.

You don't have to call it terrorism. Vandalism, reckless endangerment, malicious mischief... there are a bunch of different laws that apply.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#297

Post by snvzz » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

ErneX wrote: post #285

deltron3030 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

91% of the people of catalonia voted for the current spanish constitution back 1978, these are the rules of play for all us. Any change to that constitution should be made by the mechanisms it itself provides, and even in the case a new one is made, it'd have to be voted by the whole country in a referendum. This crisis has been provoked by irresponsable politicians that have taken shortcuts clearly out of the law in…

>91% of the people of catalonia voted for the current spanish constitution back 1978,

Many of these people are dead. There was no alternative to this constitution as it happened in a very unstable climate after the death of the dictator, where the constitution was seen as the one way to stabilize the country and advance towards a democracy.

>This crisis has been provoked by irresponsable politicians that have taken shortcuts clearly out of the law

These "irresponsible" politicians exhausted all avenues and did what they did because they had no alternative left to actually act on what their constituents, the people who voted for them, put them in place for.

And the fact people want this is in no way unrelated to what happened to the Estatut d'Autonomia, which defines the relationship between Catalonia and Spain. The current version of the document was written in Catalonia, revised and cut several times until Spain was OK with it, then voted in a referendum in Catalonia and put into effect, only to be cut down dramatically shortly after by the constitutional court, acting on the behalf of a Spanish nationalist political party which gets almost no votes at all in Catalonia. This was perceived as a massive insult to Catalan people.

Not only the situation was not repaired, but Spain's attacks on Catalonia's self government continued. This is the main reason why independence took a hold, perceived as the only option going forward.

>and we also need to keep in mind half of the people from or living in Catalonia do not want to split from Spain.

I have to ask for the source of this data. Certainly not a referendum, nor an election. At best, some newspaper poll.

My 2¢.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#298

Post by ErneX » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #274

dmaldona wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to have a healthy democracy we first need the rule of the law. Constitutions are made to define the foundations of those laws and protect citizen minorities against majority abuses: what if 80% of the population of a region decides to expel the other 20% because of whatever reasons? The fact that the state tries to preserve the integrity of the country is necessary to keep the rule of the law. For if it just…

It's not entirely sensible to talk about "rule of law" when it comes to secession. Most countries exist in violation of some earlier set of laws. They were part of some nation and broke away, or they replaced their own government with another form through revolt.

I think you meant "secession". A really small minority is actually revolting, thankfully. Lots of pro-independence people are protesting peacefully. There's also the other side that don't want to hear anything about seceding that are just looking at these events unfold pretty worried.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#299

Post by pvaldes » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

Schiphol wrote: post #78

Some commentators are pointing out, not implausibly imho, that the Spanish government is pushing the terrorism accusation against the pro-secession movement as a way to tap into terrorism-related extradition agreements in Europe. Right now there are a few Catalonian political exiles in Belgium and other countries. By the way, Tsunami Democràtic explicitly rejects violent action: https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io/no…

> Tsunami Democràtic explicitly rejects violent action

This must be sarcasm. Yeah, they reject violent action at the same time that explicitly provide all the necessary logistic support for violent action, like telling people where is the police in real time, (the same policemen and policewomen that are ambushed later), they also slowly introduce and train naive youngsters in the exciting world of crime and urban war, baby steps, and send people to burn the streets, lose their eyes and (with a little luck) die for the cause and create the long desired martyrs that will come some day.

Snakes with butterfly wings and speaking softly are still snakes.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#300

Post by sneak » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #289

input_sh wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What mechanism could a Spanish court use to shut down an American multi-billion dollar company? At worst, it could get GitHub blocked in Spain, or a local Microsoft office might get a stern look or two before Spain renews its Office 365 contract or whatever.

A spanish court could order spanish ISPs to block GitHub until they obey their order. They could also charge spanish Microsoft executives with disobedience, contempt or something similar.

> They could also charge spanish Microsoft executives with disobedience, contempt or something similar.

Unlikely, as the local executives likely didn't make this decision and don't have control over it. Guilt by association (employer) is not legal, even in Spain.