Seems like there's also a good case for Reddit moderators to not be volunteers as well. To be honest I've always thought the community moderated model has seemed like somewhat of a loophole that was eventually going to be closed. It's having your cake and eating it too. IMHO you can either have UGI with a professional moderator team OR you can have professionally made content with no moderator team.
Maybe Reddit should be turned into a shopping mall type of business where subs can be run however the sub mods want, but they have to pay a monthly rent to Reddit. I wonder if that would make things better or worse there?
Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
51–60 of 155 posts
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#52This would break a lot more services, including a substantial number of Open Source projects and communities (specifically, any that are primarily run by a company rather than a non-profit).
No it wouldn't. It's not just the fact that people are doing unpaid work. There are a number of other requirements that have to be met, which SE seems to meet with regards to how it handles moderators. Just being an unpaid moderator doesn't run afoul of the laws.
It's not clear to me what the difference is between the moderation happening on StackOverflow and the moderation happening on Wikipedia, other than that Wikipedia is non-profit. But having non-profit designation be the key factor in deciding whether or not someone can volunteer seems like a rule that would have some really negative side-effects.
The 5 points I see online are:
- Degree of Control Exercised
- Profit, Loss, and Investment
- Skill and Independent Initiative
- Integral Part of Business
Are there others that I'm missing?
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#53Seems like there's also a good case for Reddit moderators to not be volunteers as well. To be honest I've always thought the community moderated model has seemed like somewhat of a loophole that was eventually going to be closed. It's having your cake and eating it too. IMHO you can either have UGI with a professional moderator team OR you can have professionally made content with no moderator team.
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe Reddit should be turned into a shopping mall type of business where subs can be run however the sub mods want, but they have to pay a monthly rent to Reddit. I wonder if that would make things better or worse there?
It would kill 99.9% of the subs there and utterly change the culture.
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#55Why just moderating? In a sense, it's every action you do that adds value to the site by drawing people in or improving their experience. When users write a comment (such as what I'm writing right now on Hacker News), they are acting as writers who generate text for people to read. When they submit a link, they are locating content for people to read. When they upvote or downvote, they are acting somewhat like editor…
It's not about unpaid work though, it's employee-like unpaid work. https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/337123/345240 has some interesting discussion of this. In practice, that means that normal commenters or people using social media aren't relevant for two reasons: * There's minimal control over their actions from the 'employer'. There's some basic rules on what content is not allowed, but nobody says "you must write a…
I also abide by fairly strict code of conduct / moderation policies when writing on certain platforms. If I don’t abide by the community rules my posts can be flagged or even my account banned.
Paid writing is absolutely a trade, so I can’t see how any policy that sweeps up moderation can’t also equally apply to comment writing.
The government has a nasty habit of taking a concept like “work” or “income” and then applying it to literally everything so that they can regulate and tax literally everything. To the point where the IRS had to define specific exceptions for family chores lest they be deemed as barter and requiring the payment of payroll taxes.
Luckily in this case we have the 1st Amendment which should provide a pretty strong defense against any attempt to limit basic community social activities and the necessity of moderating those interactions.
Despite the fact that [I would hope] my comments on HN accrue significant value to the HN site, and that those comments are indeed work of the kind that some people even get paid for, my 1st amendment right to post here should override the interest of the State in establishing minimum wage requirements. Would love to hear a constitutional law scholar’s thoughts on this!
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#56Why just moderating? In a sense, it's every action you do that adds value to the site by drawing people in or improving their experience. When users write a comment (such as what I'm writing right now on Hacker News), they are acting as writers who generate text for people to read. When they submit a link, they are locating content for people to read. When they upvote or downvote, they are acting somewhat like editor…
It's not about unpaid work though, it's employee-like unpaid work. https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/337123/345240 has some interesting discussion of this. In practice, that means that normal commenters or people using social media aren't relevant for two reasons: * There's minimal control over their actions from the 'employer'. There's some basic rules on what content is not allowed, but nobody says "you must write a…
That’s not correct: especially on the small sites, it’s acceptable for moderators to be inactive for long periods of time. It’s not great, but it’s understood that moderators have lives, and that they’re … not employees. I can state this confidently because I used to be a moderator on smaller sites, and I finally resigned from one (without having been in any way encouraged to) after almost a year of inactivity.
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#57Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calling them transphobic when you "haven't been paying too much attention" is uncalled for. You really should make an attempt to understand the situation before making such accusations.
I'm sorry, maybe I was mistaken that the ex-moderators were engaging in the transphobic behavior of misgendering trans folks?
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calling them transphobic when you "haven't been paying too much attention" is uncalled for. You really should make an attempt to understand the situation before making such accusations.
I'm sorry, maybe I was mistaken that the ex-moderators were engaging in the transphobic behavior of misgendering trans folks?
https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/stack-...
"as a professional writer I, by training, write in a gender-neutral way specifically to avoid gender landmines, and sought clarification that this would continue to be ok"
Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?
#60And this HN thread is just going to be even more of that.