Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#31

Post by semiotagonal » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

mreome wrote: post #24

This raises some serious questions for anywhere with user/volunteer based content/moderation. Sites like Reddit operate on a model very similar to Stack Exchange, and any user-moderated forum that runs ads to pay for hosting/maintenance costs would seem to have the same issues. It also raises questions about the status of Instagram influencers, you-tube personalities, or anyone on a platform that derives it's value f…

I'm not a lawyer, but there is a common-sense difference between Stack Exchange and Reddit.

On Reddit, it's just a community having a discussion. The participants, even the moderators, are mainly involved in guiding a discussion, and Reddit just facilitates that.

On Stack Overflow, the moderators really are working directly on improving the site's content. They're practically unpaid editors.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#32

Post by jasonlotito » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

mreome wrote: post #21

docdeek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I start a subreddit, I become a moderator. Reddit didn’t ask me to start the sub so I’m not sure it would be the same thing. Unless they are actively recruiting mods for larger subreddits, perhaps.

The law doesn't seem to make a distinction about who initiated the relationship, only the nature of it. And the existence of organized/moderated subreddits is definitely an "integral part of the employer's business."

New York law uses five factors to determine if someone is an employee. Reddit is fine on several points: the degree of control exercised by the employer over the workers and the permanence or duration of the working relationship. Being a moderator of a sub-reddit doesn't entail anything other than creating the sub-reddit, which anyone can do. In addition, there is no requirement for spending time moderating that sub-reddit. This is different from Stack Exchange.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#33

Post by intended » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

harshreality wrote: post #22

nhumrich wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think so. The question askers and answers arent expected to do anything, and you could argue they are doing it out of their own self interest, which is the whole point of the site. In other words, they are the customers. Moderators on the other hand are held to certain standards, have to maintain a certain amount of moderations, and are actually doing it to better SO as a whole.

Moderators are doing it out of their own self interest, too. They're not doing it for money, so if they aren't enjoying it they can quit with zero repercussions, right? ETA: So because of the psychic toll that it may or may not take on volunteer moderators, moderating for free for a for-profit company is illegal? I guess I can understand this: It's half protecting people from getting into an unhealthy psychological t…

Yes and that's pretty much the definition of volunteering too.

Volunteers get laws and protections to prevent exploitation, which is what the NY laws were probably created to prevent.

Turns out that the genuine and thorny question of free labor keeping Reddit/FB and other platforms alive is going to be tackled via NY laws.

(Yes, FB also has its own paid moderators and outsourced staff who suffer PTSD etc.)

I for one think this is a great conversation - moderating isn't cost less, and takes a toll on the moderators, for which there is little recognition.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#34

Post by jasonlotito » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #3

This would break a lot more services, including a substantial number of Open Source projects and communities (specifically, any that are primarily run by a company rather than a non-profit).

No it wouldn't. It's not just the fact that people are doing unpaid work. There are a number of other requirements that have to be met, which SE seems to meet with regards to how it handles moderators. Just being an unpaid moderator doesn't run afoul of the laws.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#35

Post by jasonlotito » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

todd3834 wrote: post #6

Wouldn’t social networks fall under a similar category? I get that they are different but there is a lot of overlap. If they are in violation then I think the law needs to be updated.

> Wouldn’t social networks fall under a similar category?

Most social networks I'm aware of pay moderators.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#36

Post by criddell » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

jsonne wrote: post #29

Seems like there's also a good case for Reddit moderators to not be volunteers as well. To be honest I've always thought the community moderated model has seemed like somewhat of a loophole that was eventually going to be closed. It's having your cake and eating it too. IMHO you can either have UGI with a professional moderator team OR you can have professionally made content with no moderator team.

Maybe Reddit should be turned into a shopping mall type of business where subs can be run however the sub mods want, but they have to pay a monthly rent to Reddit. I wonder if that would make things better or worse there?

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#37

Post by iron0013 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

I haven't been paying too much attention to the whole thing, but is this related to the transphobic moderators who resigned a few weeks ago? I don't understand the motivations of all the players in this game--people would really try to shut down SO rather than just address each other by their preferred pronouns? That's wild to me

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#38

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

adrianmonk wrote: post #25

Why just moderating? In a sense, it's every action you do that adds value to the site by drawing people in or improving their experience. When users write a comment (such as what I'm writing right now on Hacker News), they are acting as writers who generate text for people to read. When they submit a link, they are locating content for people to read. When they upvote or downvote, they are acting somewhat like editor…

Moderating is very different from a letter to the editor. A moderator is making editorial decisions on behalf of the company using company guidelines and standards. They are held to a set of standards as well, and released from their service if they violate them.

Contributions are more like letters to the editor. The content has value to the company, but the company doesn’t exert control over either the asking or answering of questions.

The whole point of Stackoverflow, which was pretty clear if you listened to the podcasts that described some of the early planning aspects of the community was that it would be self-governing. Decisions were later made to implement a Wikipedia-style moderation system, which is problematic at a for-profit company.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#39

Post by Macha » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

jsonne wrote: post #29

Seems like there's also a good case for Reddit moderators to not be volunteers as well. To be honest I've always thought the community moderated model has seemed like somewhat of a loophole that was eventually going to be closed. It's having your cake and eating it too. IMHO you can either have UGI with a professional moderator team OR you can have professionally made content with no moderator team.

I think Reddit moderators are less restricted/directed by Reddit so they fall closer on the spectrum to the guy running a debate club/whatever at the local community centre. I don't think anyone would argue that they're an employee of the community centre, even if the community centre prohibited alcohol at their events.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#40

Post by indecisive_user » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

harshreality wrote: post #22

nhumrich wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think so. The question askers and answers arent expected to do anything, and you could argue they are doing it out of their own self interest, which is the whole point of the site. In other words, they are the customers. Moderators on the other hand are held to certain standards, have to maintain a certain amount of moderations, and are actually doing it to better SO as a whole.

Moderators are doing it out of their own self interest, too. They're not doing it for money, so if they aren't enjoying it they can quit with zero repercussions, right? ETA: So because of the psychic toll that it may or may not take on volunteer moderators, moderating for free for a for-profit company is illegal? I guess I can understand this: It's half protecting people from getting into an unhealthy psychological t…

Well by that logic you could say the same thing about retired people that take part time jobs just so they have something to do every day.

They're not necessarily doing it for the money, and most states in the US allow you to quit at any time without repercussions, but it'd still be illegal to have them work for free.

It's more about whether the person is doing 'employee-like' duties and how much control the company has over the person's actions that determines whether they should be classified as an employee or not.

Users can come and go as they please, and post as infrequently as they like. Moderators, however, must post with a certain frequency or risk being demoted.