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Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

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Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#181
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is that you're necessarily picking winners and losers in order to design the incentive scheme. It makes no sense to pay somebody $7500 to buy a new car to drive to work, but not to switch to cycling or telecommuting. In this case, it's not necessarily clear that this is a product that needs to happen. Grid scale solar is significantly cheaper due to the economies of scale. Were there a carbon tax, there'd…

>Grid scale solar is significantly cheaper due to the economies of scale. Utility scale solar has met the same ardent opposition in land use decisionmaking fora as denser housing, including from 'environmental' organizations. Some examples from around here: https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/culpeper/culpeper-coun... http://lakegastongazette-observer.com/news/article_8f621d6e-... https://richmond.com/news/local/ce…

Summary of 5 links: 2 projects cancelled due to NIMBY, 1 project being appealed due to NIMBY, 1 project cancelled due to ecological concerns (unclear if just NIMBY), 1 irrelevant link.

fredericksburg.com - application cancelled - "He, like other neighbors of the project and another larger one south of Stevensburg, have consistently expressed concerns about impact to their property values ... Orye said he didn’t think solar fit anywhere in Culpeper County, emphasizing its rich historic resources related to the Civil War and early American history."

lakegastongazette-observer.com "Opponents of the project ... turned out in droves at last week’s community meeting", "Many residents expressed concerns about the project’s effects on the ecology and their view", "the commission’s reasons for the denial were fivefold. They said the proposed facility develops more than 500 acres, is removing more than 1,100 acres of agricultural property from production, is proposed to be located in a populated residential area, is located on real estate that is located on the Virginia Scenic Byway and that setbacks and buffers on the proposed project do not adequately address the need to visually block the project from the view of its neighbors"

richmond.com - "a solar project that had significant community opposition", "plans to build a solar energy farm on 1090 acres of a 2998 acre property", "400 acres of the project would [become] a conservation easement" , "The planning commission determined that the proposed use is not in accord with recommendations made in the 2010 Long-Range Comprehensive Plan, in particular since part of the project would fall into the area designated Priority Conservation Area and Protected Land.", "Among the citizen comments that were made, most were in stringent opposition because of the negative ecological impact the project would have on protected wetlands in the area, the only remaining wildlife corridor connecting the James and Appomattox rivers, and on rare and endangered species."

starexponent.com - "Culpeper County will consider placing a cap on 'utility scale solar sprawl' equal to the amount of the renewable energy its residents could actually consume.", "In October, the board approved the county’s first-ever solar farm on 1,000 acres near Stevensburg to the dismay of neighbors, who have since filed a civil suit in the matter asking the circuit court to reverse the approval."

www.pecva.org - looks like last link just shows planning details and doesn't show opposition.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#183
post #33

> It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. There is something absolutely astonishing about the fact that in America the way we have go about being eco-friendly is to give huge tax breaks to rich people to buy solar panels and electric vehicles. To think with all that money we could build better infrastructure and denser housing. Really boggles the mind.

Why people has to paid more just because they're rich?

Poor people benefit when less energy is generated from fossil fuels.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The profit model for utility companies is to build new power plants, power lines, and substations, and charge their rate payers for that build ("rate base" it). Then they get a cut of their expense as profit. If too many people build solar, the utility can't build new infrastructure and charge everyone for it. And, they now have to manage balancing solar production with electricity usage, which means hiring new analy…

> If too many people build solar, the utility can't build new infrastructure and charge everyone for it. Right. Because solar does not play well with existing infrastructure but solar needs the grid to be even close to viable. It needs it because it is a diffuse intermittent power source, where the peak power generation does not actually match peak power use. Solar overproduction cannot be saved for later either, mea…

I may be misunderstanding but it seems like most of your comment completely ignores batteries?

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The profit model for utility companies is to build new power plants, power lines, and substations, and charge their rate payers for that build ("rate base" it). Then they get a cut of their expense as profit. If too many people build solar, the utility can't build new infrastructure and charge everyone for it. And, they now have to manage balancing solar production with electricity usage, which means hiring new analy…

> If too many people build solar, the utility can't build new infrastructure and charge everyone for it. Right. Because solar does not play well with existing infrastructure but solar needs the grid to be even close to viable. It needs it because it is a diffuse intermittent power source, where the peak power generation does not actually match peak power use. Solar overproduction cannot be saved for later either, mea…

> solar needs the grid to be even close to viable

This was true 20 years ago and will be laughable 20 years from now.

> The only power generators that can do that are ones that burn fossil fuels.

Fossil fuel generators do NOT ramp up and down quickly. BTM and FTM battery storage solutions ramp up and down faster and are rapidly becoming cheaper and more environmentally friendly alternatives.

> energy use in building panels and the number of rare earth materials each one needs, the problems with recycling them, and their land-use requirements and the environmental impact of that.

Every one of these supposed drawbacks of solar also apply to generating power with fossil fuel.

Fracking causes earthquakes in Oklahoma and wastelands in southeast New Mexico. Mountaintop removal for coal has probably permanently destroyed parts of PA, WV, VA, and KY. I won't argue that the issues you bring up aren't bad, they just lack context. In my view, human addiction to electricity is bad in all forms, but fossil fuels are clearly worse.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#186

> It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. There is something absolutely astonishing about the fact that in America the way we have go about being eco-friendly is to give huge tax breaks to rich people to buy solar panels and electric vehicles. To think with all that money we could build better infrastructure and denser housing. Really boggles the mind.

> with all that money we could build better infrastructure

The amount of incentives spent by the US government for electric cars in the last 8 years is maybe $6bn.

So that might buy a new span of the Bay Bridge.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is, and unfortunately you see it a lot on HN - apparently no one in any country can afford houses anymore. It's like this Futurama joke - "no one drives in Manhattan anymore - there's too much traffic". On this side of the pond it's the London residents saying that no one except for the ultra rich can own houses, forgetting that in other parts of the country you can buy a (new!) house for as little as £1…

As little as? For many people living in those parts of the country that isn't as magically affordable as you might think!

No? Because I live in one of those shitty parts of the country and since minimum wage laws still apply here turns out that saving £5k for a mortgage deposit isn't as impossible as saving £50k down in London is.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is that you're necessarily picking winners and losers in order to design the incentive scheme. It makes no sense to pay somebody $7500 to buy a new car to drive to work, but not to switch to cycling or telecommuting. In this case, it's not necessarily clear that this is a product that needs to happen. Grid scale solar is significantly cheaper due to the economies of scale. Were there a carbon tax, there'd…

That's exactly what regulation is and does. It picks winners, picks harmful phenomenon, and acts accordingly, with a short-to-medium timeframe based on what would get the most votes. I, too, believe that taxing actual atmospheric carbon impact would be great, but how would you measure such a thing fairly?

Just like with other taxes: brackets, rebates, credits paired with subsidies and investment.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he’s right. The EV credit is not refundable* so your tax liability has to be at least $7500 to get the full benefit of it. * https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/tax-credits-deductions/dis...

I didn't realize it wasn't refundable. However you don't need to make much to pay $7500 in taxes. I don't make enough to buy an electric car and I pay three times that.

> However you don't need to make much to pay $7500 in taxes.

You do if you're a family, with a 24K standard deduction, a family HSA ($7K), and any number of 401Ks for retirement. A group of people who would benefit significantly from an electric vehicle.

As I said, I don't qualify for the full amount and I earn well above the state's average.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#190
post #12

I wonder where they're getting their average price from, because I've never heard of a new roof and solar panel installation being that expensive. EDIT: They're comparing it to concrete roof tiles, which a quick search say that they last for ~50 years, twice as long as the warranty for the Tesla solar roof. https://www.tesla.com/solarroof/design

Warranty is different from how long something will last.
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