Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#31

Post by ben_w » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

afiori wrote: post #28

ordu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Here you are speaking using words like "electron", "thin barrier", "oxide" and so on. So you are thinking in a framework of our culture and our variant of STEM. Doing so you are trying to prove that there is no way to…

The fact that the electron exist is not culturally dependent. As much as the fact that stars exists. Any alien civilization capable of studying the behavior of atoms must also be able to express concept that are compatible with ours. Maybe the do not use numbers, calculus, or maybe they do not even use unit of measures. Yet the result of our experiments will have to be the same and since we can develop experiments th…

Electrons are a perfectly adequate model for reality. I do not read the previous poster as disputing this point.

Instead, they appear to be asking, “is there another model for reality which would also work well enough to build a MOSFET?”

I do not know either.

That said, people keep telling me that both QM and GR are known to be incomplete, so perhaps electrons are no more real than phlogiston? I would certainly be surprised, but that’s besides the point, and even if someone is currently rolling their eyes and preparing to explain why I am wrong and electrons can’t possibly be “like phlogiston” (not a position I actually hold so don’t waste your time), an alien civilisation could make an analogous mistake and fill the electron-shaped gap in their physics model with something completely different analogous to the way phlogiston filled the oxygen-shaped gap in chemistry.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#32

Post by danharaj » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

This philosophical approach to mathematics is still rooted in conceptions of mathematics from the beginning of the previous century, perhaps even earlier. This may very well be because professional philosophers have not really engaged with mathematics since then and so don't have the experience required to ascertain its current philosophical undercurrents. Even more, most mathematicians also understand the philosophy of mathematics from this outdated point of view, perhaps because most professional mathematicians have not engaged with philosophy since then.

For a philosophical exposition of recent mathematical activity, I don't think there's any book other than Synthetic Philosophy of Contemporary Mathematics by the mathematician Fernando Zalamea. The translation reads a little clumsy to me, but the ideas are very much worth it.

https://www.urbanomic.com/book/synthetic-philosophy-of-conte...

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#33

Post by ducaale » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:42 PM UTC

A relevant video that discusses if math is invented or discovered https://youtu.be/AmySxYHqQCQ

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#34

Post by tachyonbeam » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

theamk wrote: post #12

ordu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are relying on implicit assumption that quantum mechanics is the only possible theory that could lead to an invention of MOSFET transistors. Maybe this assumption is true, but I do not know it to be proved. Of course QM is the only known to us theory that had led to MOSFETs, but it doesn't mean that one couldn't invent some completely different way to describe reality which would enable him to invent MOSFETs.

In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Does a civilization know this? If no, they cannot make MOSFETs. If yes, than whatever branch of physics and math describes this is called “quantum mechanics” Can it be different, can you do QM without Schrödinger Equatio…

AFAIK triodes (vacuum tubes) were discovered by accident. Could you not say that a MOSFET works on a principle very similar to a triode, but on a much smaller scale (small enough to exploit quantum phenomena)? I think it's possible that someone could discover MOSFETs by accident, maybe after theorizing that you could build triodes on a microscopic scale.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#35

Post by klyrs » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

drdeca wrote: post #23

stult wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. And yet I somehow managed to produce a pretty complex quantum computer before I was even born: my brain. Or maybe my mom did, but she is nearly as ignorant of quantum physics and biology as I was as a fetus, so the poin…

Is your brain really a quantum computer though?

This is a popular theory. But so far the best we've got is that quantum mechanics are maybe necessary to explain neuron interactions. Which is basically equivalent to calling a computer "quantum" because it's made of MOSFETs.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#36

Post by ordu » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

afiori wrote: post #28

ordu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Here you are speaking using words like "electron", "thin barrier", "oxide" and so on. So you are thinking in a framework of our culture and our variant of STEM. Doing so you are trying to prove that there is no way to…

The fact that the electron exist is not culturally dependent. As much as the fact that stars exists. Any alien civilization capable of studying the behavior of atoms must also be able to express concept that are compatible with ours. Maybe the do not use numbers, calculus, or maybe they do not even use unit of measures. Yet the result of our experiments will have to be the same and since we can develop experiments th…

> The fact that the electron exist is not culturally dependent. As much as the fact that stars exists.

I'm not so sure about it. All I know is I'm unable to imagine how to think about Universe without splitting it into stars and electrons. But my inability doesn't prove anything.

> Any alien civilization capable of studying the behavior of atoms must also be able to express concept that are compatible with ours.

Is it necessary to study atoms to build a MOSFET transistor? Or maybe it is possible to discover, for example, some macro-theory which would give enough precision of predictions to build a MOSFET?

> the result of our experiments will have to be the same and since we can develop experiments that show specific operations they must also be able to express those operations.

To stage experiment you need a theory, you need to watch reality first and to perceive it in a specific way. The way you perceive reality based on how you interact with reality. For example to see person and his hat as a different objects there must be a reason to see them as a separate objects. If hat changed nothing, than you wouldn't be able to see a difference between person in a hat and person without a hat. As an anecdot: I mostly cannot describe people I met. Do they wear glasses? Skirt or pants? I do not know, because I'm not paying attention for such unimportant details. To see difference between apple on tree and apple falling on your head, it must be important in some ways to you. For example, falling apple could inflict pain and may be eaten, while apple on a tree is hard to reach. It is enough difference to notice it and to start searching for correlates: like pain on the head correlates with the apple fall, probably there is a causation. (Though correlation/causation are also concepts from our culture, they may be unnecessary to build a MOSFET.)

If you perceive reality some other way and rely on other theories your experimental setups would be completely alien. Moreover, experimental method is the best known to us, but didn't you think that there are possibly other superior methods to explore reality?

People invented experiment after tenth of thousands years of their history. So it is not a trivial and obvious discovery. It is a complex find, which based on tenth of thousands years of culture evolution. We need to assume that this evolution could go in convergent ways, if we want to state that experimental method is necessity for any advanced civilization.

I do not state that process is not convergent, but I do not state that it is convergent either. I do not know and I wish to share my ignorance. Perceived ignorance is the most valuable kind of knowledge. ;)

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#37

Post by tromp » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

Perhaps, if our symbolic notation would appear "alien" to them, the simple graphical notation in [1] could help them understand.

[1] http://tromp.github.io/cl/diagrams.html

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#38

Post by ouid » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

of course they would.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#39

Post by ducaale » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

What would happen if this question was reformalated as "If there was another civilization, would they have invented lambda calculus?"

As for the question of "is mathmatics discovered or invented", if two or more people can discover the same branch of mathmatics, wouldn't that mean that it is a universal truth that could even be discovered by aliens?

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#40

Post by theamk » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #34

theamk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Does a civilization know this? If no, they cannot make MOSFETs. If yes, than whatever branch of physics and math describes this is called “quantum mechanics” Can it be different, can you do QM without Schrödinger Equatio…

AFAIK triodes (vacuum tubes) were discovered by accident. Could you not say that a MOSFET works on a principle very similar to a triode, but on a much smaller scale (small enough to exploit quantum phenomena)? I think it's possible that someone could discover MOSFETs by accident, maybe after theorizing that you could build triodes on a microscopic scale.

Sure, they can build a MOSFET. But it will be pretty bad, you need to have a theory of operations before you can make reliable, powerful and small device we have today.

In fact, a field effect transistor (the FET part of MOSFET) was discovered in 1925 and 1934, but nothing happened with it until the theory was there, and someone (Shockley) spent years refining the theory with experiments.