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Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

tomasp.net

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Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#21

Post by ordu »

theamk wrote: post #12
ordu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are relying on implicit assumption that quantum mechanics is the only possible theory that could lead to an invention of MOSFET transistors. Maybe this assumption is true, but I do not know it to be proved. Of course QM is the only known to us theory that had led to MOSFETs, but it doesn't mean that one couldn't invent some completely different way to describe reality which would enable him to invent MOSFETs.

In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Does a civilization know this? If no, they cannot make MOSFETs. If yes, than whatever branch of physics and math describes this is called “quantum mechanics” Can it be different, can you do QM without Schrödinger Equatio…

> In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong.

Here you are speaking using words like "electron", "thin barrier", "oxide" and so on. So you are thinking in a framework of our culture and our variant of STEM. Doing so you are trying to prove that there is no way to invent another variant of STEM. I believe, that such an approach could achieve nothing.

I mean, to speak "electron" you need to rely implicitly on a whole mountain of theories about reality. So even if you proved that one cannot build MOSFET without QM, it would mean that he cannot do it while relying on this mountain of theories. It wouldn't prove that there are no other mountains allowing to invent MOSFET.

> Can it be different, can you do QM without Schrödinger Equation? Sure, but it will still be QM.

It is a trivial proposition. "QM without Schrödinger Equation" is QM by definition. The question is if it possible to build some other models of reality that allow to invent MOSFET. As I see it you are trying to remove QM from the mountain of theories and to think what could replace QM. It is completely possible that nothing but QM could replace QM in such a setup. But what would happen if you remove all of the mountain of theories and start from scratch?

I do not know. To see what would happen I need to design an empirical research that would involve some millions of people and a few millennia. To be sure I would need to repeat this at least 50 times.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#23

Post by drdeca »

stult wrote: post #15
theamk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Does a civilization know this? If no, they cannot make MOSFETs. If yes, than whatever branch of physics and math describes this is called “quantum mechanics” Can it be different, can you do QM without Schrödinger Equatio…

>In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. And yet I somehow managed to produce a pretty complex quantum computer before I was even born: my brain. Or maybe my mom did, but she is nearly as ignorant of quantum physics and biology as I was as a fetus, so the poin…

Is your brain really a quantum computer though?

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#24

Post by mannykannot »

theknarf wrote: post #6

> The naive argument that computer scientists often make is that lambda calculus is at the heart of the isomorphism between logic, computation and category theory and this suggests that it refers to some eternal truth. This is a Platonist view of mathematics which is just one of several positions. The main problem with it is that it cannot be tested and so it is more a religious belief than a scientific claim. Howeve…

Indeed - if/when we meet aliens that we can communicate with, I suspect that they will have their own theory that we can all agree is also part of the isomorphism.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#26

Post by mapcars »

All the things we are discovering and inventing are only result of how we fundamentally see the Universe (which is strongly connected to how our perception organs work), not other way around.

I would say they might understand anything we understand on a basis that we do so it is possible and it is equally possible that they might not understand us at all :)

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#28

Post by afiori »

ordu wrote: post #21
theamk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Does a civilization know this? If no, they cannot make MOSFETs. If yes, than whatever branch of physics and math describes this is called “quantum mechanics” Can it be different, can you do QM without Schrödinger Equatio…

> In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Here you are speaking using words like "electron", "thin barrier", "oxide" and so on. So you are thinking in a framework of our culture and our variant of STEM. Doing so you are trying to prove that there is no way to…

The fact that the electron exist is not culturally dependent. As much as the fact that stars exists.

Any alien civilization capable of studying the behavior of atoms must also be able to express concept that are compatible with ours.

Maybe the do not use numbers, calculus, or maybe they do not even use unit of measures. Yet the result of our experiments will have to be the same and since we can develop experiments that show specific operations they must also be able to express those operations.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#29

Post by pc86 »

ordu wrote: post #21
theamk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Does a civilization know this? If no, they cannot make MOSFETs. If yes, than whatever branch of physics and math describes this is called “quantum mechanics” Can it be different, can you do QM without Schrödinger Equatio…

> In order to build a MOSFET, you need to know how do electrons react in the presence of thin barriers, and how thick should the gate oxide be to prevent breakdown while still keeping the field strong. Here you are speaking using words like "electron", "thin barrier", "oxide" and so on. So you are thinking in a framework of our culture and our variant of STEM. Doing so you are trying to prove that there is no way to…

You seem to think that knowledge of electrons (regardless of what we call them or how we arrive at that knowledge) has some cultural significance or requisite, which it does not.

Oxidation is a chemical process - any entity on any planet with a laboratory will be able to mimic and study that same chemical process (regardless of the chemical makeup of them or their world).

Culture is irrelevant in both of these.

Re: Would aliens understand lambda calculus? (2018)

#30

Post by bigtunacan »

jacobush wrote: post #16
theamk wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vacuum tubes are inherently limited by physics, they cannot be used to create an efficient and small power converters. So if civilization is stuck with vacuum tubes, it is highly unlikely they’ll get to renewable power sources, and therefore they’ll likely to die off once they run off of their oil-equivalent. If the civilization comes to us, it is likely they are at least as technological advanced as we are. Which me…

Maybe they only ever used hydro power, on their, hot and humid 2G rocky water planet.

Maybe they are vastly overrun by sandworms that spew unlimited supplies of oil rather than Melange?
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