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Gmail marking email from me as spam

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Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#111

Post by Kovah »

irjustin wrote: post #79

I would argue in this narrow case - I would not point to nefarious undercurrents. Google's ML mail spam models are that way because there's too many bad actors. Email, even in 2019, still extremely valuable. If you can get into people's email inbox, there's still quite high conversion rate - better than clicks/videos on a pure percentage basis. Even the author wants to reach out to people in a cold fashion. As a gmai…

> As a gmail user, I 100% appreciate keeping my inbox extremely clean. Google's spam filter is a welcome addition.

Interesting how different things are for different users. Gmails spam protection isn't working at all for me. Confirmation emails from reputable sources get into spam, while really obvious spam messages get into my inbox. I mean.. really, really obvious messages. With "dfdf" a thousand times at the end just to make the message longer. Or these porn-bitcoin-scam messages.

It's ridiculous.

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#113

Post by em-bee »

skrause wrote: post #84
djsumdog wrote: post #63

I thought this had been getting better. At least more e-mail from my personal server has been getting through to its destinations. I've written about this too a few years back: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/how-google-and-microsoft-made... ..and I reference the Hostile E-mail Landscape blog post by Ribton (really good btw).. which is gone now and redirects to some bullshit software site (there are archives of it). I…

> but honestly I'd rather have some SPAM get through than get HAM marked and placed in the big fucking SPAM bucket I never check. This is why I like that my email provider ( https://mailbox.org/en/ ) simply rejects all messages detected as spam: False positives don't get lost in a spam folder I never check, instead the sender gets a mail delivery failure notice by their own mail server and at least get a notification…

but what if email is the only way to reach you?

so i got a notification that you didn't get the email. fine. i still have no way to talk to you unless i sign up to some other email service and try it again.

depending on the reason to email you, i may not care enough. (maybe i wanted to buy your service)

if a customer emails me and i don't respond because i didn't get the email, i have a problem, not the customer.

the better solution would be both. respond with a delivery notice, AND deliver the email to my spam folder.

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#114

Post by boudin »

the_pwner224 wrote: post #97
irjustin wrote: post #79

I would argue in this narrow case - I would not point to nefarious undercurrents. Google's ML mail spam models are that way because there's too many bad actors. Email, even in 2019, still extremely valuable. If you can get into people's email inbox, there's still quite high conversion rate - better than clicks/videos on a pure percentage basis. Even the author wants to reach out to people in a cold fashion. As a gmai…

> Google's ML mail spam models are that way because there's too many bad actors. Email, even in 2019, still extremely valuable. Google's spam models freaking suck donkey dick. I use Fastmail but my university uses Google for email. A service we use (Piazza, class Q&A) sends notifications via email. Over the years I have gotten probably about 1k email notifications from them, and replied to a few of them too. Google h…

Yeah, gmail is really not great. I host my own email but use gmail for work. I hate everything in gmail, from the UI to the lack of really simple way to filter thing (like sieve) and to the totally random behaviour like you described. In the end, I don't really read emails on gmail anymore because it's just a huge pain.

My own server has a good reputation, but it meant setting up SPF, DKIM, DMARC etc.... Where it was the most painful was with microsoft email (I don't know the name of their service now, still live maybe). By default mails goes to spam, but really quickly they goes in limbo if people don't respond (on the smtp side the email is accepted but the recipient never see it, not even in spam). On new microsoft accounts I was always able to send a few emails in spam before it went into limbo. I ended up creating ~20 different accounts on their system (it was before they enforced giving a phone number) and had random discussions with myself for a while which was enough to build a reputation and not being put in spam anymore. I don't know if this behaviour was intended or not, I try to get in touch with someone from microsoft but couldn't find a way. Since then I do strongly advise not to use their system because that makes it really unreliable.

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#115

Post by fx32s »

the_pwner224 wrote: post #97
irjustin wrote: post #79

I would argue in this narrow case - I would not point to nefarious undercurrents. Google's ML mail spam models are that way because there's too many bad actors. Email, even in 2019, still extremely valuable. If you can get into people's email inbox, there's still quite high conversion rate - better than clicks/videos on a pure percentage basis. Even the author wants to reach out to people in a cold fashion. As a gmai…

> Google's ML mail spam models are that way because there's too many bad actors. Email, even in 2019, still extremely valuable. Google's spam models freaking suck donkey dick. I use Fastmail but my university uses Google for email. A service we use (Piazza, class Q&A) sends notifications via email. Over the years I have gotten probably about 1k email notifications from them, and replied to a few of them too. Google h…

It's curious that people have such diverging experiences with the spam filter. I think the claim that Google's filter is objectively worse should at least be supported by some evidence if you're going to make a bold statement like that.

As another data point, for me and friends I it beats competitors by a large margin.

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#116

Post by yc12340 »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #9
cnst wrote: post #2

I'm actually having a similar problem recently, although my messages are declined at the SMTP stage, "due to the very low reputation of the sending domain", which I attribute to the output of certain cron jobs being sent towards my own Gmail account — it seems like my whole primary domain name has subsequently been blacklisted a few weeks ago: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340460 * https://mailman.nanog.or…

If the mailing list is using a bulk email service, then they should use DomainKeys Identified Mail (DKIM) and Sender Policy Framework (SPF) for identifying ownership & not getting marked as spam i.e. If they aren't really a spam.

Sorry, but your advice have been detached from reality for a long time.

SPF is not a "should" anymore, it is a must. Many major e-mail providers will outright reject your e-mail at SMTP level, unless you have correct SPF record. Rest will move SPF-less e-mail to spam on automatic basis. In this sense SPF does help you to get delivered, and avoid getting into spam bin, but your chances can only go from "100% spam" to "90% likely spam", not "0% likehood of being spam".

DKIM is not a major consideration for Gmail (or anyone, as far as I know) and have never been one. You will not magically avoid spam bin by using DKIM. Instead DKIM provides a great opportunity to botch your reputation with mail servers: as soon as you forward a e-mail (between providers or within the same provider) it will lose it's DKIM validity, and thus may get classified as spam (!!) on the basis of invalid DKIM signature. Boom! you are a spammer now.

Valid SSL cert and valid SPF are the only things, that have noticeable impact on Gmail's treatment of your email. DKIM and DMARK and largely useless and can only get you in extra trouble.

As for bulk email, it is going to be classified as spam until your domain and IP gain sufficient reputation. The only way to gain that reputation is to send slowly increasing amount of email for long time without being marked as spam. Being a rich business, Google's client, hanging on Google's forums, using Gmail as your mail server and having at least dozen contacts among Google's employees also helps.

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#117

Post by blackhaz »

irjustin wrote: post #79

I would argue in this narrow case - I would not point to nefarious undercurrents. Google's ML mail spam models are that way because there's too many bad actors. Email, even in 2019, still extremely valuable. If you can get into people's email inbox, there's still quite high conversion rate - better than clicks/videos on a pure percentage basis. Even the author wants to reach out to people in a cold fashion. As a gmai…

But it's not about how good the Google's ML models are, you're missing the point! It's about Google being the huge many-headed monster with tentacles.

You can't use part of Google service without being entangled in their new protocols, the way they code and build things, run operating systems or servers, browse the web, and so on. You have to run your business the Google way now. The most scary part of this - the monster is completely deaf. Cry as much as you like, it's not going to listen. Even if you bring thousands of gifts to it every day, you can be erased from the web in an instant, and it won't even notice.

It's not too evil (yet!) but it has so much power it's scary.

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#118

Post by LeonM »

I run an email security/monitoring business [0], and we hear this issue with Gmail a lot, in fact: we have been bitten by it as well during the early days.

The problem at hand is that it is really hard to debug situations like this. Google won't tell you why a particular email is blocked, because that information will be immediately exploited by spammers.

We build our software suite because we found that mistakes in email configuration are easy to make and really hard to identify.

I did a quick scan of rafa.eu.org and found the following:

- SPF is setup [1] with a neutral 'all' mechanism, which basically disables SPF for this domain. Hence, DMARC will set SPF as 'pass' even though SPF did nothing here to help the spam algorithm to assess the sender.

- A DMARC record exists and has a valid syntax [2], but the proposition (p value) is set to 'none', which basically disables DMARC altogether. It will enable reporting, but nothing more than that.

- I don't know you DKIM selector, so I can't assess that, but make sure the DKIM signature address is aligned (using the same domain name).

- The TLS configuration of your email server uses a self-signed certificate and is very much outdated (it offers SSLv3 and RC4 ciphers). I used testlssh.sh [3] to check this.

So yes, you technically did setup TLS, SPF and DMARC, but in all 3 you have configuration errors. Running a mail server in 2019 requires a bit more work and maintenance than it used to be 10 years ago, but the reason is spammers, not Google. Remember: it is in Google's best interest to have as few false positives, as it ultimately benefits the users. It's just really frustrating that it is hard to figure out why Google is marking your email as spam.

[0] https://www.mailhardener.com

[1] https://www.mailhardener.com/tools/spf-validator?domain=rafa...

[2] https://www.mailhardener.com/tools/dmarc-validator?domain=ra...

[3] https://testssl.sh/

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#119

Post by guizb »

The email landscape is substantially more complex now than it was three decades ago. The poster seems to be frustrated that he is mostly getting technical explanations to his rather emotionally fueled question. He is literally phishing for an argument on the morals of a big company deciding he is a potential spammer without absolute proof. He made it clear that his opinion is that there should be a system in place at Google that he can petition for his reputation, and that emails that look like spam should say 'potentially spam' rather than send it to a spam folder. All this while sending emails from an origin that is very well known for spammers and whose actions depict a typical bot account warming up. (Poster claims to on occasion initiate personal conversations with people who have their emails publicly listed, such as an author from a news site he might disagree with). There is just no reliable system today that allows for someone to host their email servers in a spam haven, not use relays, act like a spammer, and expect not to get your emails sent to spam folders.

It's insulting to the folks that are pouring their time replying to what they think is a user in need of technical assistance, only to eventually stop replying when it becomes obvious that he only replies with questions of morality and treats most answers as if they were platitudes specifically attempting to dismiss his efforts to communicate.

Re: Gmail marking email from me as spam

#120

Post by yoavm »

This was the single reason I couldn't operate my own mail server. My mails were just always marked as spam by Google, no matter how much I made sure the whole TLS/DKIM/DMARC/DNSSEC/etc setup was correct. We tend to think about E-mail as something that is still distributed, but Google really killed that.
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