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The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

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Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#81

Post by vidarh »

FakeComments wrote: post #12
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> And in a way it exploits these people even if it’s their choice. How, exactly? Your position is that they’d be better off with a different job, but presumably we’re talking about adults there by choice. How is voluntary prostitution more exploitative than, say, a construction worker? ...or even third shift at a grocery store? I mean, if your point is Marxist all labor for pay is “exploitation”, okay — but otherwise…

This argument tends to come from the exact opposite viewpoint of Marxists. Part of the issue is that prostitution is often "in your face exploitative" (I'm not suggesting it always is), and because it often is, a lot of people are very insistent on making it into a moral issue where it can't be anything but exploitative, because the alternative if you allow yourself to accept prostitution as "just another profession" among many that can also be dangerous, exploitative, uncomfortable, and so on, is to accept that "normal" occupations can also be exploitative, and that's surprisingly hard to swallow for a lot of people even if you don't go anywhere near all the way to a Marxist "all labor is exploitation" line.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#82

Post by holoduke »

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

You are so wrong about the red light district. I am Dutch and live in Amsterdam almost my entire life. The red light district is not shady at all. Plenty of hipster bars within and around the zone. Hardly any dealers walking around anymore these days. Red-light district is both popular by locals and tourists. It's the safest city center neighborhood. The place never really was a shady place. Not even in the 17th century. It's a place of obscure trade. Sometimes a bit too much for outsiders. The available sex and drugs in the red light zone is not linked to criminal activity. It is heavily regulated with many different institutions watching over it. No Dutch girls working behind the glass? Again you are so wrong. Yes the mayority are Romanian and Bulgarian. But the private clubs are mostly Dutch girls.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#83

Post by coldtea »

pyrale wrote: post #66
goobynight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why being "trashy" and into drugs+sex has to be relegated to a journey outside the city center. Pearl clutching moralists (not necessarily you) always have a strong voice at this table though. Being interested in these things is no better than raising useless generations of children who, on average, will eventually have MULTIPLE degenerates in the family line. Some jobs are just simply for poor people. I'…

> The work involving sex doesn't make it significantly more exploitative than [...] driving for Uber How many uber drivers were assaulted or killed in the last month? How many are coerced into driving for uber, and have their gains captured by third party? In which cities are there rings traficking slaves to drive uber cabs? What is the mean age of death for uber drivers? I mean, please... do yourself a favour and re…

What about those, that, as in TFA, say that they do it by choice, it's a job, and that the government/"concerned citizens" should leave them the duck alone?

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#84

Post by Yaa101 »

targonca wrote: post #39
misja111 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been living in Amsterdam for the last 25 years, here is a bit of background. 25 years ago the red light district was a no go area for except for people looking for sex or drugs. But in the recent decades that has slowly changed. At some point it became fashionable to live in the old city centre and in the red light district housing was cheap. As soon as those 'normal' people were living there they started to c…

Sounds like gentrification to me.

It is, I live in the Red Light District for 34 years and have seen it all. This plan to get rid of the girls is a setup of the civil cervants and the church since around 2000. When I came living there in 1985 the neighborhood was rough, relative unsave because of dealers and junkies and there was a lot of crappy state housing. Round 2000 most of these problems were gone and the land/housing slowly started to become more valueable. A lot of parties with interest to gain a lot from that neighbourhood, with all their own reasons, started to plan for the removal of coffeeshops and the girls. The tourists coming for these coffeeshops were low key and hardly a problem for the authorities. The interested parties started 1012 project to buy out all the owners of the window bordellos, this failed due to finance problems caused by the expensive north/south metroline and the downfall of the economy in 2008. Then the parties had another plan, "Let's invite lower class uncivil drinking tourists through the tourist buro", then they can trash the neibourhood and make life difficult for the ladies behind the windows. Then the parties started to talk how little respect and danger these girls are getting from those tourists, now we have a reason to relocate these girls and make the money from those now high valued buildings and land. There are billions involved with this, don't let people fool you into thinking that there is a milligram of altruism.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#85

Post by coldtea »

briandear wrote: post #50
goobynight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why being "trashy" and into drugs+sex has to be relegated to a journey outside the city center. Pearl clutching moralists (not necessarily you) always have a strong voice at this table though. Being interested in these things is no better than raising useless generations of children who, on average, will eventually have MULTIPLE degenerates in the family line. Some jobs are just simply for poor people. I'…

You are suggesting sex work is preferable to Uber? Have you ever been a sex worker? I am as libertarian as it comes, but that false dichotomy is ridiculous. Either get “exploited” by Uber or get a job where men stick their penises in you a dozen times a day. But at least you aren’t being “exploited” by some filthy VC-funded capitalists right?

>or get a job where men stick their penises in you a dozen times a day.

How is that different from lifting boxes in some factory job, or whatever menial work?

I mean, I know the e.g. Christian answer.

What would the distinction be, however, without giving some special negative spiritual quality to having sex?

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#86

Post by didibus »

goobynight wrote: post #19
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

I don't see why being "trashy" and into drugs+sex has to be relegated to a journey outside the city center. Pearl clutching moralists (not necessarily you) always have a strong voice at this table though. Being interested in these things is no better than raising useless generations of children who, on average, will eventually have MULTIPLE degenerates in the family line. Some jobs are just simply for poor people. I'…

I think something that needs to happen isn't just to legalize it, that's just a small first step, the more impactful one would be to moralize it, make it normal and acceptable, remove all stigma around it.

If you did the latter, you would change the market for it, and open up the door for non exploited workers in the field.

When others give you strange looks, when families disavow you, when people demonize you, shout you names, refuse you work in other fields, look at you with disdain and pity, etc.. It's no wonder the only people who still go through with getting in the field are exploited. Why would anyone do it otherwise? Making it legal doesn't change that.

And that goes for the customer base as well. The stigma is high, so who ends up being the target market? A bad crowd of people, that's what. The people who aren't affected by the stigma of seeking sex and drugs for money. And again, that doesn't change by making it legal.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#87

Post by DoreenMichele »

pyrale wrote: post #66
goobynight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why being "trashy" and into drugs+sex has to be relegated to a journey outside the city center. Pearl clutching moralists (not necessarily you) always have a strong voice at this table though. Being interested in these things is no better than raising useless generations of children who, on average, will eventually have MULTIPLE degenerates in the family line. Some jobs are just simply for poor people. I'…

> The work involving sex doesn't make it significantly more exploitative than [...] driving for Uber How many uber drivers were assaulted or killed in the last month? How many are coerced into driving for uber, and have their gains captured by third party? In which cities are there rings traficking slaves to drive uber cabs? What is the mean age of death for uber drivers? I mean, please... do yourself a favour and re…

There has been a recent rash of taxi driver suicides. It is being largely attributed to the rise of services like Uber. There are many articles about the dark side of the Gig Economy and how much workers feel exploited, don't have healthcare, etc.

I do gig work and I think it has potential to do good things for the world, but my views are in the minority. Most people see the Gig Economy as an evil force doing nothing but exploiting workers and that exploitation absolutely kills people at times.

There is substantial evidence that a large part of the danger involved in sex work comes from the fact that it is criminalized. This fact actively makes it harder for sex workers to operate safely.

Uber drivers do not have that problem.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#88

Post by mc32 »

naasking wrote: post #80
mc32 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a few reasons, it often involves very vulnerable people, people who were coerced, people who were tricked (we have student jobs for you, hand over your passport though), etc. People are similarly uncomfortable with migrant manual laborers in the ME who are also coerced and tricked, though many do it knowingly because the alternative is worse. Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially inden…

> Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially indentured migrant manual laborers, so they can be taken advantage of easier. But this isn't the same thing. You're talking about human trafficking, not sex work as a whole. If Nike trafficked a bunch of kids to set up a sweat shop in North America, we'd be upset not because shoes were being made on our continent, but because of the trafficking and exploi…

Yes two things trafficked people and people who can give consent knowingly and willingly consenting to entering this sector legally (as is possible be in NL). There is grey area where people under economic duress are taken advantage of and will ‘consent’ even if it’s unpalatable to them, if they had alternatives.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#89

Post by toasterlovin »

geggam wrote: post #76
toasterlovin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if a homeless person takes a shit in your door step right in the broad daylight (actual thing that happened at my place of work several years ago). Cool with that as well?

Public restrooms are a problem in many areas. Take San Francisco. People piss and shit on the streets, you would think its because they have no couth, I almost ended up shitting on the street because no one lets you use their toilet without buying something and the friggin lines were too long. I still dont understand why folks dont let tiny houses and allocate certain parking lots to let the homeless use for sleeping…

Shitting in the bushes or behind a dumpster because you simply have to go and there's no restroom within reach is an act of necessity. Many of us have found ourselves so disposed. Shitting on someone's doorstep is not something anyone needs to do, ever.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#90

Post by geggam »

toasterlovin wrote: post #89
geggam wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public restrooms are a problem in many areas. Take San Francisco. People piss and shit on the streets, you would think its because they have no couth, I almost ended up shitting on the street because no one lets you use their toilet without buying something and the friggin lines were too long. I still dont understand why folks dont let tiny houses and allocate certain parking lots to let the homeless use for sleeping…

Shitting in the bushes or behind a dumpster because you simply have to go and there's no restroom within reach is an act of necessity. Many of us have found ourselves so disposed. Shitting on someone's doorstep is not something anyone needs to do, ever.

Find me a bush on market street in the finance district.
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