The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District • Hacker News Board

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#61

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #49

Synaesthesia wrote: post #35

One of my favourite authors is Chris Hedges. I was surprised to discover he is against decriminalisation of sex work. His arguments actually won me over. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-real-face-of-prostitut... https://www.truthdig.com/articles/prostitution-being-raped-f... https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-underbelly-of-the-sex-...

I'm was unclear on something - is Chris Hedges saying that sex workers should be themselves charged with a criminal offense, or that only pimps should be? Those blog posts make it out that sex work is a crime against the sex workers; i.e., it is prostitutes that are the victims. If that is indeed the case then prostitutes should be able to go freely to the police for protection, without fear of prosecution, since the…

> Those blog posts make it out that sex work is a crime against the sex workers; i.e., it is prostitutes that are the victims. If that is indeed the case then prostitutes should be able to go freely to the police for protection, without fear of prosecution, since they are the victims. So that makes it unclear to me what it means that Hedges is against decriminalization.

He's of a school of thought that sex workers are victims, but since most sex workers do sex work voluntarily, it means that he views sex workers as victims of their own harmful actions. The implication (whether or not he states it directly) is that sex workers need to be saved from their own harmful actions (ie, the work they do voluntarily) because otherwise they will harm themselves.

While it's dressed in secular rhetoric, at its core, it's a very Puritanical, moralistic argument that ultimately is used to justify people taking steps to "save" sex workers from their "wrongful (harmful) actions".

Unsurprisingly, sex workers do not like him or his work.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#62

Post by vkou » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #41

brosinante wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - because say, there's obviously no nuance required between "rough sleepers are still people" and "let's add spikes to the building entrance so we don't have to look at rough sleepers in the morning". It's really just a bunch of hippie hypocrites, slurring their "maaaaan" and pretending everything is alright until they call the cops, and you're certainly not projecting your own view about the world, making spur…

> Right - because say, there's obviously no nuance required between "rough sleepers are still people" and "let's add spikes to the building entrance so we don't have to look at rough sleepers in the morning". Every single person, without exception, you included, would be really pissed off with and do everything to get rid of a rough sleeper sleeping on under their window. Instead of adding spikes, they will call the…

I don't call the police when someone's sleeping rough by the dumpsters at the entry to my garage.

Everyone needs to sleep, for fuck's sakes. If they aren't being violent, or damaging property, this isn't a police issue.

If there was a social number I could call, that would get that person housed, I'd do that. But there isn't.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#63

Post by ritchiea » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #46

naasking wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

It's a line that is crossed, using your body for money has never ever been seen as something normal. Even accepting the reality of life complexities, broken marriages, loneliness, etc sex as a products is never praised. The only argument so far is "I should be free to use my body as I will". But probably only a minuscule amount of sex "workers" have the material and emotional comfort to choose that. So basically when…

Using your body for money isn’t normal? Using your body for money is the dominant form of labor. Manual work, factory work, mining, domestic labor, even most service jobs (you cook, you clean, you carry dishes). Undoubtedly sex work makes some people uncomfortable but it’s not because it involves the body.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#64

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

teej wrote: post #7

close04 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not once I heard of a local Dutch girl doing this. How is this relevant? I mean in what manner would nationality change your opinion on this topic?

Places with legal sex work have higher rates of human trafficking > Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking…

> Places with legal sex work have higher rates of human trafficking

Places with legal sex work have higher reported rates of human trafficking. This is not a surprise; one of the biggest arguments consistently made in favor of decriminalizing sex work is that it will make it easier to catch human trafficking, and make it easier for trafficking victims to come forward without the risk of being charged for a crime.'

Even the article you quote, if you take the time to read it all the way, doesn't draw the conclusion that the higher reported rates of human trafficking mean that sex work should be criminalized.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#65

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #51

misja111 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been living in Amsterdam for the last 25 years, here is a bit of background. 25 years ago the red light district was a no go area for except for people looking for sex or drugs. But in the recent decades that has slowly changed. At some point it became fashionable to live in the old city centre and in the red light district housing was cheap. As soon as those 'normal' people were living there they started to c…

As soon as those 'normal' people were living there they started to complain about all the noise and the shady figures that were hanging around. So it's like when Americans create a new suburb in the country, then get pissed off about the rooster crowing at 5am on their day off. (Insert some joke here about cocks that somehow applies to both farms and red light districts.) Edit: To be fair, some of the concerns outlin…

To be fair, people might not know about the roosters when they move in. Maybe it's more like people buying a house next to an airport that's been there for 50 years, and then complaining about all the airplane noise.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#66

Post by pyrale » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

goobynight wrote: post #19

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

I don't see why being "trashy" and into drugs+sex has to be relegated to a journey outside the city center. Pearl clutching moralists (not necessarily you) always have a strong voice at this table though. Being interested in these things is no better than raising useless generations of children who, on average, will eventually have MULTIPLE degenerates in the family line. Some jobs are just simply for poor people. I'…

> The work involving sex doesn't make it significantly more exploitative than [...] driving for Uber

How many uber drivers were assaulted or killed in the last month? How many are coerced into driving for uber, and have their gains captured by third party? In which cities are there rings traficking slaves to drive uber cabs? What is the mean age of death for uber drivers?

I mean, please... do yourself a favour and research a bit before you make such ignorant claims.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#67

Post by vidarh » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #43

mc32 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a few reasons, it often involves very vulnerable people, people who were coerced, people who were tricked (we have student jobs for you, hand over your passport though), etc. People are similarly uncomfortable with migrant manual laborers in the ME who are also coerced and tricked, though many do it knowingly because the alternative is worse. Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially inden…

I'd like to hear viewpoints that represent sex workers as having agency, rather than pets or wards to be told what they need. Why don't we listen to sex workers themselves, when they tell us what policy changes they want? If sex workers say sex work should be criminalized, that would hold some weight for me. If they're exploited, I'd like to hear what they think would actually help them.

It's one of those situations where it's inconvenient to listen to the people affected, because they tend to say things politicians don't want to hear.

E.g. when Norway criminalized buying sex, the prostitutes own organizations were against it and argued it'd push a lot of the sex trade underground and make the women less safe. They were totally ignored, and they continue to be ignored when they repeatedly warn that they're unable to report violence and crimes safely, in part because it makes police aware that they're prostitutes, and by extension that there will be people visiting them that are likely to break the law, and that their landlords are potentially breaking the law (if they're aware of the prostitution; which they will be soon enough if the police takes an interest).

If they were listening and disagreeing, that would be one thing, but there's a staggering amount of moralising from politicians that do not even try to talk to the people they claim they want to protect. And that makes me think that their motives are more to do with getting activities they don't like out of sight than about helping the people involved to get out of it.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#68

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

[deleted]

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#69

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

teej wrote: post #7

close04 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not once I heard of a local Dutch girl doing this. How is this relevant? I mean in what manner would nationality change your opinion on this topic?

Places with legal sex work have higher rates of human trafficking > Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking…

[deleted]

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#70

Post by tempguy9999 » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #50

goobynight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why being "trashy" and into drugs+sex has to be relegated to a journey outside the city center. Pearl clutching moralists (not necessarily you) always have a strong voice at this table though. Being interested in these things is no better than raising useless generations of children who, on average, will eventually have MULTIPLE degenerates in the family line. Some jobs are just simply for poor people. I'…

You are suggesting sex work is preferable to Uber? Have you ever been a sex worker? I am as libertarian as it comes, but that false dichotomy is ridiculous. Either get “exploited” by Uber or get a job where men stick their penises in you a dozen times a day. But at least you aren’t being “exploited” by some filthy VC-funded capitalists right?

Perhaps you should not assume stuff. Not all prostitutes dislike their work; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21346209

Now, an actual fact, I knew a guy, a licensed accountant, about 20 years ago who did the accounts of a working lady (ok, prostitute). He said she was pulling in about £80,000/year. He didn't say whether she liked her job so I can't help you there.