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The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#51

Post by [deleted] »

akincisor wrote: post #5
barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

[deleted]

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#53

Post by song »

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

First, having lived in China in different cities and in Japan, the empty seat phenomenon is nowhere as pronounced in China as in Japan. In Japan, you sometimes end up seating next to an empty seat in a packed train, I've rarely seen that in Japan. Yes as foreigners, we are more likely to be seated next to an empty seat in China but once the train is packed, the seat doesn't stay empty.

It's a very different feeling in Japan.

I also rather disagree with the suggestion to get out. Getting out is not always easy and besides that, why should one systematically accept racism? It's ok to complain about it. Doesn't mean that he doesn't find some positive aspects about living in Japan but he has a right to complain about this kind of behavior

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#54

Post by wheels »

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

Wow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home.

The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed)

As a traveler, and someone that's been to almost 50 countries, I tend to keep my head down and not make waves when I'm out of my the cultures where I feel at home. But that doesn't mean that I can't write about injustices. That's what you're literally saying the author is not entitled to do. After a decade in said country.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#55

Post by spats1990 »

ddiq2 wrote: post #43
spats1990 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that though, because: 1. he may not be in a position of being able to leave easily after this long--a random example could be a significant other who does not speak English well. 2. the attitude this comment takes (and I've been living in Seoul for the last four years so I've spent a while thinking about this[1]) is absolutely unacceptable to most people if placed in a western context. Diff…

There may be some cases where it's more complicated, but this isn't one of them. Japan is the country of the Japanese, and they have no obligation to even let this guy live in his country, much less put up with his whining.

On the contrary, I believe that ethnonationalism is ethnonationalism no matter where you go, as are xenophobic attitudes. The difference lies in what outcomes these worldviews produce in the world. I'm happy to let this interaction end on that note, thanks.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#56

Post by shatobi »

I think there is a lot of over-interpretation of his. It never seems to happen to me. When you want to be the victim, you might seem to notice it happening. And certainly, there might be some people who don't like foreigners. But as far as I can tell I don't notice it. Perhaps the author has some other features that might make one want to sit beside someone else. The discriminative feature might not him being a foreigner. Furthermore, as a kid I did not like to sit beside foreigners (anyone I did not know) either. I was scared of anyone.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#57

Post by executesorder66 »

This just seems like pure racism to me. I spent 2 weeks in Japan recently, and I took all kinds of trains, from the Shinkansen, to Tokyo metro to random local trains. In various cities and towns. I am, and I look white af. Not even remotely Japanese or even Asian. Not once on my trip did Japanese people "avoid" me or leave an empty seat between us. In fact some of them even slept on my shoulder! The only time there were empty seats was when only a few people were on the train and everyone naturally spreads out.

The only difference I can tell between myself and this guy, is that he's black and I'm white. But we are both distinctly non-Japanese. So again, it just seems like racism to me. I'd be glad to hear why that is not the case though. Let me know what you think.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#58

Post by wahern »

ddiq wrote: post #15
theroo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”. Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough. But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.

It's not "unfair treatment," it's perfectly normal for people to feel more comfortable around their own. They don't know if this guy knows train etiquette, if he has body odor - only around 10% of East Asians do, or maybe it's just that he's wider than the average Japanese person, as it appears so from his picture. He's a guest in their country, and it's impudent for him to think he has the right to be sat next to at…

The East Asian ABCC11 allele results in less spontaneous body odor, but exactly because of that many people of East Asian descent, particularly those in East Asia, bathe less often than Americans.

You know who also enjoy reduced apocrine secretions? Old people. But there's a definite musk to old people, very much like the musk of a bunch of younger non-sweaty people on their second or third day (or longer) since showering.

But I wouldn't not sit next to somebody because of that; certainly not in the expectation that I might smell something. (Although certainly I've wished I hadn't sat somewhere because of this.) I find it difficult to believe that even the Japanese would do this, even for a black foreigner[1]. More likely their aversion is more general and non-specific. It takes effort to be that racist, considering the circumstance (crowded train) and prevalence (everybody for years, so like thousands of people; and an experience shared with many other American expats).

Anyhow, being "racist" isn't like some mark of Cain. As you imply, we're all racially prejudiced and all have shared experiences of being prejudiced, which is why I feel I can confidently make some assumptions and draw some inferences despite not being Japanese or having lived in Japan. And the author is pretty clear that he's in a state of perpetually "making peace" with the situation, which is basically a way of saying that though he holds some very strongly held beliefs about the way people should behave, and some visceral feelings about the way he's treated, he's nonetheless aware of the reality of the situation, that these people aren't trying to be mean, and that he recognizes an unresolved moral quandary by judging them and their culture.

[1] I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most blacks in Japan are American, not from Africa, and therefore much more likely to be daily bathers who use deodorant. Which means it's very unlikely he actually has a strong odor, and far more likely people assume he might based on a stereotype, to the extent they're assuming anything specific at all.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#59

Post by eirini1 »

paggle wrote: post #44

Sure, Japan is a ~monoracial country and there isn't the level of racial awareness there that you have in the US. I feel like you have to accept some of this if you choose to live in Japan as a person of color. I experienced this myself when I wanted to do the "teach English abroad for a year" thing in Japan after college. I have Top 1% English skills and have won literary prizes for my writing in college, and speak…

Japan is also definitely not a monoracial country - people are ignoring for example the Ainu people.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#60

Post by solidasparagus »

RaiseProfits wrote: post #46
solidasparagus wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude to say that to someone, but as a foreigner if you can't come to terms with the face that you ARE an outsider, leaving's your only alternative (America's pretty diverse so eventually anyone can become a local, but in many places the visual difference will always set you apart). I've been the foreigner before and there's a big gap between not being treated like a local and being actively encouraged to leave.

It’s still racism even if it’s culturally acceptable.

Only if you're treated worse. Which in many places you are not. But you're still not a local.
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