The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train • Hacker News Board

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#31

Post by spats1990 » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:03 AM UTC

ddiq wrote: post #15

theroo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”. Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough. But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.

It's not "unfair treatment," it's perfectly normal for people to feel more comfortable around their own. They don't know if this guy knows train etiquette, if he has body odor - only around 10% of East Asians do, or maybe it's just that he's wider than the average Japanese person, as it appears so from his picture. He's a guest in their country, and it's impudent for him to think he has the right to be sat next to at…

It's more complicated than that though, because:

1. he may not be in a position of being able to leave easily after this long--a random example could be a significant other who does not speak English well.

2. the attitude this comment takes (and I've been living in Seoul for the last four years so I've spent a while thinking about this[1]) is absolutely unacceptable to most people if placed in a western context. Different race? He's a guest in their country!

What is it about East Asia that makes this attitude so tempting? is a question that doesn't let go once it gets its hooks into you. The ethnic homogeneity of Japan/Korea and to a lesser extent China must be a part of it. Race and the assumed privilege (privilege to leave, etc) of being a westerner also factors in.For example, things would be murkier if the author of the article were a labourer from SE Asia. But I haven't fully worked it out yet and maybe never will.

[1] Koreans don't do the empty seat thing when the train/bus is crowded. I'll also note that I've been an enthusiastic proponent of "if you don't like it leave" at various times, depending on the situation, and am not pretending to have all the answers.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#32

Post by NhanH » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:03 AM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #16

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with someone telling a non-us citizen black man in the US "If you don't like people acting racist toward you, go back where you came from"? That is fairly widely considered inappropriate in the US (though not universally).

The US is pretty much the other extreme from homogenous country/society. Regardless of one's answer to your question, you are gonna need to pick a different country name in it to have any kind of comparison to Japan

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#33

Post by ddiq » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:03 AM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #16

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with someone telling a non-us citizen black man in the US "If you don't like people acting racist toward you, go back where you came from"? That is fairly widely considered inappropriate in the US (though not universally).

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with a non-citizen Japanese person lecturing you on why Americans are bad because they don't have the exact same outlook and attitude as Japanese people?

Because that's what the author of this article is doing.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#34

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:03 AM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #16

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with someone telling a non-us citizen black man in the US "If you don't like people acting racist toward you, go back where you came from"? That is fairly widely considered inappropriate in the US (though not universally).

I think tilting at windmills is a great way to spend precious hours or years of your life to a net negative effect on your life. It may redound to the benefit of other people later but you’ll pay the costs, not them. If that sounds like a good deal to you go for it.

I am personally a big fan of going where I’m wanted and where I feel comfortable rather than trying to change other people.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#35

Post by solidasparagus » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #16

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with someone telling a non-us citizen black man in the US "If you don't like people acting racist toward you, go back where you came from"? That is fairly widely considered inappropriate in the US (though not universally).

It's rude to say that to someone, but as a foreigner if you can't come to terms with the face that you ARE an outsider, leaving's your only alternative (America's pretty diverse so eventually anyone can become a local, but in many places the visual difference will always set you apart).

I've been the foreigner before and there's a big gap between not being treated like a local and being actively encouraged to leave.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#36

Post by Aeolun » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:05 AM UTC

et-al wrote: post #17

asp_hornet wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m never going to be Chineses, same as he’s never going to be Japanese. If that bugs him why not go home? No one’s making him stay in Japan. I’m so happy to read this comment. I lived in Japan for 4 years and had the same feeling. People are always upset they’re not seen as Japanese despite the fact they are indeed not Japanese. I could see an argument if you were a child of a western parent, born and raised in Ja…

If you happen to be in a visually homogenous society (i.e. rural America, or Japan), you're gonna be treated differently because you stand out. This common occurrence for American-born children of non-white immigrants in American. "Where are you from?" "Kansas City" "No, where are you really from?" This being said, America's had more immigrants come in than Japan, so by collective experience, America should be more o…

The same thing is true for anyone in the US though. They always describe themselves as being [insert grandparents’ nationality before coming to the US].

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#37

Post by xwdv » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:05 AM UTC

theroo wrote: post #18

ddiq wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "unfair treatment," it's perfectly normal for people to feel more comfortable around their own. They don't know if this guy knows train etiquette, if he has body odor - only around 10% of East Asians do, or maybe it's just that he's wider than the average Japanese person, as it appears so from his picture. He's a guest in their country, and it's impudent for him to think he has the right to be sat next to at…

He’s black. Did you read that part?

So? Is the black race so tortured that blacks must feel extra disturbed when subjected to some sort of racism wherever they are in the world?

Racism isn’t something you should always take personally. It is possible to harbor racist feelings toward a race while still making an exception for individuals you get to know on a personal basis.

When I’m in Japan, I know people will take one look at me and think I’m a filthy gaijin. Fair enough, I don’t blame them as they live in a very homogeneous country and outsiders are rare. It is the price I pay for being in their country, and I won’t try to change that, I’ll just try to do my thing and stay out of the way. I don’t want any trouble.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#38

Post by spats1990 » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:05 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #23

theroo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”. Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough. But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.

If you spend extensive time reflecting on an injustice you can’t do anything about and that isn’t going to change that is absolutely “stewing”. I know someone who is still bitter at someone years dead and brings them up to bash them regularly. They were wronged and they’re stewing. The article’s plenty insightful, it provides a wonderful insight into what it’s like to be the author, and secondarily, an aspect of bein…

In the words of the late Donald Richie: "I would leave Japan if I were Japanese."

But there are endless perspectives on this issue and quite a few have their merits, despite contradicting each other.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#39

Post by fennecfoxen » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:07 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

I bet I know what will really help "change the things you can". Instead of writing that article about racism for people to read about it and react, and prompt reflection on prejudice in all aspects of life -- you should just shut up and go home. Challenge nothing and no one. Do not stand up for human rights. Object vocally when others do.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#40

Post by tunesmith » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:07 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #23

theroo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”. Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough. But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.

If you spend extensive time reflecting on an injustice you can’t do anything about and that isn’t going to change that is absolutely “stewing”. I know someone who is still bitter at someone years dead and brings them up to bash them regularly. They were wronged and they’re stewing. The article’s plenty insightful, it provides a wonderful insight into what it’s like to be the author, and secondarily, an aspect of bein…

I don't understand the conclusion that just because he wrote a couple of articles about it ten years apart, that he's been constantly stewing on it for that entire time. Maybe it's something that only occurs to him when he's on the train, and even then maybe only sometimes, and maybe - as a writer - he's trained to recognize these transient thoughts and tease them into articles. That's what a lot of these slice-of-life articles are, focusing on moments that would otherwise slip by and escape notice.