Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich • Hacker News Board

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#221

Post by vinay427 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #202

vinay427 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone now living in Switzerland, I've found it largely futile trying to explain anything about Switzerland to most non-Europeans. For starters, no one seems to bother with what countries are in the EU, let alone the EEA, let alone where Switzerland is in all of this. Apparently "everyone in Europe" has free government-paid healthcare and never has to pay for any medical expenses. I could go on...

Tbf the borders of "Europe" are fairly complicated, there is the EU itself, the EEA, the Schengen Area, the Eurozone, EFTA and CEFTA, the EUCU, the EEU, the CISFTA, the OBSEC, the Eastern partnership (or EPA), the OECD Countries, the CEI, and finally the Council of Europe. There is more that I probably forgot about but this should about cover it. None of these political areas and borders have 100% coverage amongst ea…

Definitely. One could even add NATO to that alongside OECD. I don't really expect most people to understand all of these groups, but just to avoid making sweeping statements about the continent (which already has an ambiguous definition) without understanding the groups. I guess this problem of generalizing is a concern with nearly every issue, though.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#222

Post by jjeaff » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

nolok wrote: post #213

mrep wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a startup thing, because i've only worked for the big 5 (GAFAM) and I've always worked 40 hours a week. Add in the way higher comp, and I don't know why anyone outside of founders work at startups.

"We're a team", "we're in this together", that kind of things. People buy into it.

There are a lot more factors in a successful and enjoyable career than salary and hours worked.

I wouldn't take a job that pays double what I make now and has half as many hours if those hours were nothing but sitting in a dark room.

You can get a lot of satisfaction from building something meaningful with a team that people enjoy using.

Not that you can't do that in a big company, but all development jobs at big Corp are not that.

I would tear my hair out if my only job every day was figuring out how to get more people to click on sidebar ads.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#223

Post by defen » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

esoterica wrote: post #219

barry-cotter wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like the Writer’s Guild off America that’s not seniority based pay, that’s up or out. You wouldn’t describe the pay structure at McKinsey as seniority based pay, it’s get better or be fired, forever.

Veterans get paid more than rookies. You have to work for X years to be a veteran. That’s the definition of seniority based pay.

Kyler Murray's rookie contract is for $35,158,645. You're talking about the league minimum rookie contract. The veteran minimum is higher than the rookie minimum but there is no prohibition on paying rookies more.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#224

Post by barry-cotter » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:48 AM UTC

defen wrote: post #218

barry-cotter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional sports don’t restrict entry for the same reason Idaho doesn’t have a military, someone else does that for them. SAG-AFTRA absolutely does restrict entry, you need $3,000 to pay the joining fee on top of having a year of qualifying membership in another union. The WGA does not appear to restrict entry but if they don’t have seniority based pay the structure of television writer’s rooms makes no sense. In…

> SAG-AFTRA absolutely does restrict entry, you need $3,000 to pay the joining fee on top of having a year of qualifying membership in another union. A year of qualifying membership in another union, or 1-3 days of work in a movie. The $3,000 initiation fee is mostly to make sure that people are serious about joining and is not inherently required - the union makes almost all of its money from dues. That would also n…

My point was that SAG-AFTRA deliberately restricts entry. If the fee is

> to make sure people are serious about joining and not inherently required

that rather supports them restricting entry doesn’t it?

The tech industry does have a reasonably similar age structure but it’s because of decades of sustained rapid growth more than pushing people out. If your industry grows 100% a decade in employment in year 30 with perfect retention you have 25% of staff with 20 years experience. That’s quite different from static or falling numbers of jobs and getting priced out of working because you’re too expensive.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#225

Post by mscasts » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 8:47 AM UTC

xckfs wrote: post #196

mscasts wrote: post #77

Google has become such a garbage company to be honest. Is anything they do nowadays good and honest? I think Google heavily needs to be split up.

Having worked at many large companies, I can honestly say that Google was the best behaved company of all of them, by far. I think the difference is that Google has a relatively large contingent of "activist" type employees, and they're given a lot of latitude to speak their mind. When something bad happens, everybody hears about it because the employees are the ones shouting it loudest from the rooftops. Their track…

> I think the difference is that Google has a relatively large contingent of "activist" type employees

Yes, I believe also this is the case. This is also in my opinion the biggest issue with Google nowadays and what makes it extra garbage. They seem to be caught again and again to use their large size to surpress and censor people and companies.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#226

Post by cameronbrown » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #214

cameronbrown wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just smacks of jealousy. Maybe get some perspective and appreciate what you have, not what others have that you don't.

Hell yea I am jealous, have you met rich people? Do you realize how they live and how little they work and the absolutely shitty society that we have to live in to keep them rich? Of course I am jealous. How are you not? I see you also work for Google. Do you realize how much money Eric Schmidt makes off your labor while fucking women in some mansion? Do you realize how shitty the internet is for the sole purpose of…

Mate - I'm happy for what I have got: friends, family, I'm not homeless, a career, health,.. The things that really matter more than raw £ signs. I don't feel the need to compare myself to anyone at the top of my company - why do you feel the need to?

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#227

Post by moate » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #56

moate wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just trying to understand: you think that somehow unions make it EASIER to layoff/fire someone? That management would somehow assume it's easier/less costly to fire people when they know those people will have a lawyer review the terms of their termination? That management would be less inclined to attempt including illegal non-competes?

No, sorry, I was too succinct. I am saying externalities like unions make it HARDER. Therefore the commenter might never have been laid off in a heavily unionized employment situation. Not arguing explicitly for or against, just mentioning that in situations where it is difficult to layoff/fire employees, it is not always a good thing (peer complacency, bloat, etc). Those that have worked in those situations often wi…

He worked for a company with a union, and was still fired. I still don't understand your point here. Yes, he says the layoff had benefits, but that seemed more like a "silver lining" than a "I'm glad things happened this way".

IDK, I'm either reading his statement or yours in a way someone isn't intending.

Also, people who work in non-union jobs often feel that peer complacency and bloat are problems. That's not unique to union shops. Everyone has had a job where there was "that guy" that nobody understood how he kept his job. IDK why people thing unions magically create this problem, or make it worse. Mostly because I haven't seen any studies proving it, it's just a "feeling" people have.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#228

Post by gfdgsgaagrhstrs » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 8:09 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #139

vkou wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't take that claim too seriously, because a real Libertarian would welcome a free, and non-coercive association between employees as much as they welcome the free, and completely non-coercive association between an employee, and their employer... (I am, of course, not at all coerced to work under the conditions my employer sets upon me!) But for some reason, many Libertarians have nothing but contempt for the fo…

Free and non-coercive is the key. Things such as Card Check mean that employees as individuals are able to be coerced to sign the card rather than unionization via secret ballot. Furthermore so-called “closed shops” infringe on an individual’s right to not join the union (or pay required representation fees.) Free and without coercion is fine, but in union activities in the US, it is rarely, if ever the case. Also lo…

None of this is remotely true. The actors guild is an obvious counterexample.

> I have a SAAS company

Surprise surprise, a business owner that doesn't like unions. Who would have thought?

> Also look at how “scabs” are treated by union employees. They are often subjected to violence and threats if they choose to exercise their choice to ignore a strike. That is the opposite of free and without coercion.

Get out scab.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#229

Post by changoplatanero » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 6:26 AM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #153

changoplatanero wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of us want a union

Unions are optional. There are at least 3 unions at my place, and most employees aren't members. What's the issue?

In the united states most unions are not optional