Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#91

Post by gerbilly » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:21 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #67

gerbilly wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right about everything but the timescale: the current generation of kids already grew up under constant surveillance...by their parents. When I grew up, during evenings weekends and holidays, kids ran around in the neighborhood with their friends from sunup to sundown. Outside of mealtimes, parents had no idea where we were. A generation later and parents started to time-box everything their kids do,…

How did the "free range" generation (before it was unusual enough to even have a name) turn into the overbearing parenting generation?

The everse network effect driven by:

1) Ambition for kids to get into the right preschool so they can get into Harvard or whatever, causing more parents to put their kids in 'enriching' scheduled activities.

2) Unreasonable fear fueled by the media. Ironically, stranger child abduction gas been declining steadily for decades and is at an all time low.

This has effectively removed more free range kids to the point now that if you wanted your kids to go play outside, they wouldn't find any other kids out there to play with.

This is why I call it a reverse network effect. The value in playing outside for a kid is now lower since there are fewer potential playmates out there.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#92

Post by Nasrudith » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

wingspar wrote: post #52

DataWorker wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re downvoted for some reason but you’re correct. Public school is about the power of the state over individuals. Data collection in the form of attendance is the business model. Schools get paid only to the extent they have data on the kids. No data means no public schools. What’s the saying, if something is free then you’re the product. True for Facebook and true for public education.

>> What’s the saying, if something is free then you’re the product. True for Facebook and true for public education. Public education is hardly free. Parents are generally required by law to educate their children. Society has generally decided to do that collectively, sharing the cost via taxes. Attendance is one tool used in enforcing the education requirement. Are patients in countries with nationalized healthcare…

Historically they were more like the livestock technically - invested in for exploitability. Don't get me wrong it does real good but the original motives weren't altruistic but power related.

If I recall correctly in the UK WWI comscription revealed a disturbingly large percentage were too unhealthy to serve in ways which could have been prevented with medical care. If it was actually altruistic or even optimality related it would have been addressed earlier for either humanitarian or productivity reasons.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#93

Post by gumby » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

tehlike wrote: post #83

red-indian wrote: post #13

A few years ago I found out my nephew's Kindergarten had implemented fingerprint scanners for all students. They get to scan their fingerprint when checking in or out of lunch, going to the bathroom, arriving and leaving school. Promoted as a safety feature to ensure they knew where the kids were and that they were ok. I was asked to go in with my brother and talk to them about it. They said it was all ok because tha…

All it takes is one eu citizen to file a gdpr complaint...

These are US schools. I don't think my EU citizen child in the USA will have any enforceable standing.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#94

Post by vkou » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:40 PM UTC

Riverheart wrote: post #90

vkou wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of what schools do has little to no academic value, so that's not exactly a practical rebuke.

That's an overly cynical view of school but I'll hear you out if you'd like to support that line of reasoning.

A few thoughts that immediately spring to mind:

Starting school at 7:30 has negative academic value, because half the students aren't even awake yet.

It's done because it's convenient for parents, who have to drop their kids off, who, for some reason, are 'incapable' of walking to school like their parents did.

A class of 32-35 students per teacher has no positive academic value. It is purely a cost-saving measure, that leaves everyone with a half-assed education.

Having to ask permission to piss, hall passes, limits on the number of students allowed to use the restroom at a time (typically 1/class) has more in common with a prison, or maybe boot camp, than a school. And, of course, there's no time in the 5-minute between class break for everyone who needs to, to both use the facilities, and get to their class, on time. It is done purely for social control reasons.

The expectation that teachers also do the job of social workers results in a lot of anti-academic outcomes. When your teacher, in a class of 30, is more concerned about how to deal with behaviour problems for a kid whose parents are, say, raging, shitty alcoholics, is not particularly conductive to the academic development of their peers. But that's not the school's, or the teacher's fault, so I can give that a pass.

AI essay grading (which is a more modern development, and works about as well as asking a monkey to grade essays) is the new thing that's popular to complain about. Negative academic value, but it saves time for teachers, who don't want to spend hours grading the hours of homework they assign. I don't blame them for preferring to have a 10-hour workday, instead of a 15-hour one, but still...

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#95

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #53

heavyset_go wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly how safe will these kids be if someone with nefarious intentions gets their hands on their PII? Not very, if you ask me.

How safe will they be when, 20 years from now, their classmate is arrested for political crimes, and this data shows that they were friends during school?

Not safe at all.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#96

Post by theOneTrueOld » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #94

Riverheart wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an overly cynical view of school but I'll hear you out if you'd like to support that line of reasoning.

A few thoughts that immediately spring to mind: Starting school at 7:30 has negative academic value, because half the students aren't even awake yet. It's done because it's convenient for parents, who have to drop their kids off, who, for some reason, are 'incapable' of walking to school like their parents did. A class of 32-35 students per teacher has no positive academic value. It is purely a cost-saving measure, t…

Some teachers give out bathroom passes that if you do not use them for the semester they can be turned in for extra credit. Extra credit for holding your bladder. Educational value: zero

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#97

Post by Riverheart » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 6:48 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #94

Riverheart wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an overly cynical view of school but I'll hear you out if you'd like to support that line of reasoning.

A few thoughts that immediately spring to mind: Starting school at 7:30 has negative academic value, because half the students aren't even awake yet. It's done because it's convenient for parents, who have to drop their kids off, who, for some reason, are 'incapable' of walking to school like their parents did. A class of 32-35 students per teacher has no positive academic value. It is purely a cost-saving measure, t…

I think these are valid criticisms of school/school life and I agree that there is room for improvement. I don't feel that these issues mean that school doesn't value academics or supports the addition of things that don't have academic value. Operating an education system at scale, on budget and effectively seems like a herculean task and I'm willing to accept the end result won't be perfect.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#98

Post by rwmurrayVT » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

theOneTrueOld wrote: post #96

vkou wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few thoughts that immediately spring to mind: Starting school at 7:30 has negative academic value, because half the students aren't even awake yet. It's done because it's convenient for parents, who have to drop their kids off, who, for some reason, are 'incapable' of walking to school like their parents did. A class of 32-35 students per teacher has no positive academic value. It is purely a cost-saving measure, t…

Some teachers give out bathroom passes that if you do not use them for the semester they can be turned in for extra credit. Extra credit for holding your bladder. Educational value: zero

Welcome to the USA: At 18 we're asking to use the restroom while also being asked to make massive financial decisions about continuing education !!

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#99

Post by rwmurrayVT » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

knz wrote: post #81

MarcScott wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every school in my area (UK) uses fingerprint scanners, including my son's. They're used only for purchasing food from the school's cafeteria. I'm quite "privacy aware" and don't really have any problems with this. The schools act under GDPR, the data stored is just a hash of the fingerprint, and compared to the data held on the school management software, a fingerprint hash is pretty negligible. My kid could…

My kid's elementary school in the US uses their initials and a five digit PIN. It took about a week for them to learn their PIN (during which time they had a card with the number) when they started school but, several years later, it works fine and doesn't involve exposing their biometric or other PII data.

We used 7 digit code that was assigned to us. It stayed with you K-12. You could 'prepay' for your meals with a single check. I did that until one day the entire school found out my number was 1008000. Suddenly, I had no money to buy lunch and a large amount of library fines. They couldn't change my number so my parents were forced to give me 2 dollars every day and I knew the librarians very well.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#100

Post by Miraste » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

rob_b wrote: post #68

mLuby wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Searches about suicide/murder-related topics could lead to life-saving interventions. One sympathizes with families that didn't or couldn't read the warning signs, and understands why they'd whole-heartedly support monitoring. The other side is that children learn there is an intense adult response to certain topics. That may lead to excessive interest in that topic. Or ever more secretive behavior. Or an inability t…

Why stop with monitoring the computer? It would be easier to just plant a device to monitor thoughts and every action. Surely, this would only be used for good, and after all, it’s all about safety. The monitoring for safety argument is merely an excuse to eliminate the right to privacy and shift the power to a government entity. Never in the history of mankind has this power ever been abused.

> It would be easier to just plant a device to monitor thoughts and every action.

If this were possible schools would already be doing it.