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Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

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Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#351

I was living in Florida, working for a Boston-based WebDev/ISP consultancy. Smart people, high-flying projects, free snacks, nerf shenanigans, constant hiring, with bonuses for you-name-it. I'd recently gotten a nice bonus for bringing on my good friend as the office's systems administrator. Business slowed, clients missed payments, people started watching f*d.com, the first round of layoffs came, the execs did a tou…

> sending back the extra paycheck the company had accidentally sent.

Sorry, didn't get it....

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#353
post #182
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of this is not due to goodwill of owners, but unions.

These are specific examples, not general trends, so you should be able to cite evidence that these examples were due to union pressure.

Note that union boosters tend to want to push the narrative that all business owners and managers are evil caricatures of greedy capitalists who wouldn't give workers anything but scraps if not for the valiant unions protecting them.

Not saying it's never true, but know when to be wary of union people claiming this and avoiding the point that unions sometimes obstruct efforts to keep the company alive and not lay anyone off during hard times by demanding strict adherence to negotiated agreements on hours and wages.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#354

I graduated in 2002, took a "Beltway Bandit" consulting job testing Java code for a Treasury project in a basement in Hyattsville, MD, watched my older friends who graduated in 2000 into dotcom pay struggle to keep up payments on their Porsches, and counted my blessings for being able to pay my student loans and foolish new car purchase. Two years later, I took a US Army contracting job in Germany, and through a coup…

Great advice. I have a friend who went into finance in the run-up to the Great Recession. He spent his first big bonus on a Ferrari. Then the crash came, and the Ferrari sat in a parking garage (over $1,000 a month because it was a premium car) while it took him years to find another job. Also, nobody was buying a used Ferrari in '08 or '09 so he couldn't even get rid of the damn thing haha.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#355

Offered in the spirit of "don't believe everything you hear": I went into university and graduated during the post-bust winter. The few adults I knew, plus the Wall Street Journal, were unanimous in their opinion that engineering as a field was done in the United States and that all future hiring of software developers would happen in Asia. I got on a plane to Japan immediately after graduation. It's been a fun and f…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#356
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad. Most companies these days (to include HP) are hire and fire shops. All of them deny it. Want to know why my resume is full of 1-2 year stints? Because when a project is winding down I've learned to start looking for a new job - because it's the safe thing to do. Managers will tell you up until the day you get your layoff notice that your job is safe.

At my last real job, the entire IT staff was getting laid off when the new CIO came in. One team after another and replaced with contractors. We knew in November of 2016 things weren't going to last. I was on the last IT team still employed. My manager was fighting tooth and nail to try and save at least some of us. But come February (3 months longer than other IT teams) the fight was over and he lost. We were all la…

> one of the easiest decision of my life.

Which way did you decide?

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#357
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no “grinding leetcode” in the late 90s...

What were SWE interviews and interview prep like back in late 90s/early 00s?

UK experience. Turn up, usually do some sort of coding or skill test - which was mostly on paper and consisted of about half an hour or so worth of questions. Starting with a few gifts like an obvious error, or "explain encapsulation", through to 2 or 3 bastards that were probably the current department's idea of funny. 30min - 1.5 hr interview, usually with a quick wander round the department or building. Not uncommon to get an offer as we wrap up. No prep - just know the company you apply to, and know your stuff.

A few were still just interview with no test. Some would have a second round - mostly corporates, which were mostly a repeat of round one but with someone else. In that era I can remember just one whiteboard interview, which also required a surprise presentation. I passed, but didn't want to proceed. The interview put me right off them. :)

On the interviewing side it was actually depressingly common to have one or two turn up and hard fail the easy gifts, and completely fail to explain encapsulation, or know what a constructor was etc. There were quite a few trying to wing it with a couple of years C++ or Java on the CV when they maybe sort-of knew a bit of C and fancied a bit of the absurd y2k and dot com money that TV kept on about.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#358
Business with no real plan for making money failed. Business who depended on the clients being able to pay ridiculous prices with the VC money failed.

Basically, if it didn't provide critical and provable value to a business, its money sources dried up, and it failed. Tons of people were laid off. They stopped paying devs stupid high salaries, and competition for jobs was _fierce_.

My advice, find your way to a company that saves other companies lots of money (and makes that clear to them), that makes something other companies can't live without, or is so tightly integrated with the functioning of its clients that they can't get rid of it even if they want to.

Also, live frugally, and save money for the coming storm because there's a good chance you'll get laid off. It doesn't matter how skilled you are or how invaluable you think you are.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#359
A lot of people forget that telecom was a major mover during the dot com boom years. I was in the industry and it was the Wild West with deregulation and new technology being borne every day to try and corner the high speed internet markets.

I worked at several floundering telecom companies out of college and it was all rainbows and unicorns, "We're going to change the world!" VC money was coming in like crazy, but I saw red flags everywhere.

Best example was at the last telecom I worked at. They had managed to get a specific contract with Qwest that gave them enterprise level rates on PBX lines for small companies. Basically the state had given sweetheart rates to the huge corporate players in my home state of MN. 3M, Honeywell, Mayo Clinic and others were paying next to nothing for their lines, but because of the volume, Qwest was still making a ton of money every month. One of the founders was an attorney and told Qwest there was a clause that stated they needed to give that rate to everybody, not just these huge corporations. They actually had public hearings and everybody was asleep at the wheel. The FCC allowed this company a five year contract for the same rates, the only catch was each entity who got the rates had to have a minimum of 10 lines. Then, after five years, the contract would expire and the loophole would be closed.

When I was hired, the CEO told me they wanted to have the highest paid sales staff. He laid out the salary and commission structure and red flags went up (see below). After I was hired, I found out the CEO bought season tickets for all the major sports teams in town (that included the Twins, the Timberwolves, The Wild and the Vikings), two of the teams (Vikings and Wild), he got a suite. The office we were in was already way too big. We had a staff of about a dozen, and it was big enough for a company of about triple that size. No matter, he spent a ton of money to completely remodel the whole office in his vision. They had around $3 million privately invested and he blew through that with his excessive spending and staff payroll in about 4 months.

It was then shit got really interesting (more on that in a bit)

Here was the salary+commission structure:

Salary was $45K/year

Commission structure looked like this:

You were paid per line with a commission structure that ramped up as the number of lines increased.

The math went like this:

- (Less than 20 lines was paid out at $60/line)

- 20 line minimum: $1,000

- 35 lines: $2,000

- 40 lines: $3,000

- 50+ lines: $4,000

Let's say you landed three clients in the same building and you got a 40 line deal. This means you got your base salary for the month which was around $3,700 plus you got commission on every level of your deal so you added another $5K on top of your salary. Once I started working there, I found out the company was only clearing $25/per line, per month in revenue. It doesn't take a genius to see that and start to panic.

If you sold a 40 line deal and the company was paying out $5K in commission, but was only making $25/line in revenue, it would literally take 16 years just to break even. I started asking around, since this wasn't making much sense. I started talking with the engineers, some of who were given stock options in the company. Most wouldn't talk to me, but I got in good with one and he said this whole thing was a scam. The idea was to grow the business rapidly, shed all the VC money and then once it was bought by a larger telecom company, everybody would cash out and start another company. Rinse and repeat as necessary. I suddenly realized I was in a very bad position, but it was already too late.

Once the CEO had torched through most of the money, a war started between the investors. There were six private investors. Apparently they had a meeting to discuss the dire straights of the company. Three of the investors wanted to put in more money and keep it going until the company could grow enough where they could still sell it for a healthy profit. The other three wanted out. One half sued the other half. The other half counter sued. Two days later, I came to the office and a security guard greeted me and told me I wasn't going to work. The doors were locked by way of court order and the company was effectively shut down pending legal cases.

Less than a week later, the bottom fell out of the economy and the dot boom was suddenly the dot com bust

The lessons I learned (if even from the outside) from that experience really helped when I started several of my own companies. I have yet to take VC money. I've been able to bootstrap all of my companies on my own, with minimal investment. I run as close to bare steel as possible. No offices, no hardware, bare minimum for my overhead expenses. Try and do as much with as little as you need. Pick a niche market and address a specific problem and then own that niche. Try to stay away from larger players in already well established markets. And for fucks sake, never, ever, ever pay your employees a kings ransom to work for you.

Sorry for the long ramble, but I love telling this story. It has so many lessons in it for founders and other people in the startup world.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#360

I spent two years welding ships together at the shipyards in San Diego. Yay fallback skills! There are times when I miss it. Of all the jobs I've had over the years, it was the most meritocratic. If you did your job well and didn't cause too much rework, they loved you. I don't miss the hazardous/chemically toxic work environment, though. Those two years felt like a decade of wear on my body.

didn't you wear any protection?

Of course. You still spent several hours on site getting to the work area, breaking to eat lunch, etc. I had it a lot better than the guys that didn't feel like wearing the respirators, but PPE isn't perfect.

Think of it like wearing shoes at the beach. Yeah, they protect you from most of the sand as you're walking around, but enough gets past that you still have to dump them out when you leave.

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