Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession • Hacker News Board

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#151

Post by Mountain_Skies » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

xienze wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. And you think that would improve under socialism or communism?

It would likely improve under democratic socialism (which is not the same model as communism or socialism). Especially if we disconnect healthcare from employment allowing workers more freedom to pick employers or entrepreneurship. People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. They have to have hope they won't spend their lives on an economic treadmill where one slip will cause their demise. This is…

If I remember correctly, it was labor unions that demanded that employers provide these benefits for their employees. Doubt the unions had any ill intent but the law of unintended consequences really has come into play. The whole system is so entrenched that any solution is going to be painful to implement though maybe or maybe not as painful as continuing the current state of things.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#152

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #151

toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would likely improve under democratic socialism (which is not the same model as communism or socialism). Especially if we disconnect healthcare from employment allowing workers more freedom to pick employers or entrepreneurship. People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. They have to have hope they won't spend their lives on an economic treadmill where one slip will cause their demise. This is…

If I remember correctly, it was labor unions that demanded that employers provide these benefits for their employees. Doubt the unions had any ill intent but the law of unintended consequences really has come into play. The whole system is so entrenched that any solution is going to be painful to implement though maybe or maybe not as painful as continuing the current state of things.

It was because of wage freezes during WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_United...

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#153

Post by playing_colours » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #25

perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

>Its what makes the west so prosperous And destroy our habitat.

It is orthogonal to a system. In USSR they polluted air, water, soil as hell. Eastern Germany was just a bit better:

http://www.naturschutzgeschichte-ost.de/index.php?id=206

https://grist.org/article/2011-04-21-underground-environment...

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#154

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #114

_ylmx wrote: post #55

I can't understand what people actually have against capitalism. Most of the times when I hear about the problems of my generation much of it comes down to personal choice. You don't have to go to an expensive college, you don't have to live in the "it" part of town, and you don't have to use your credit card. I've heard so many people complain about the injustices of the world, but at the same time they pay twice as…

Part of understanding the debate is realizing that virtually no one wants to abandon capitalism. Just like virtually no one wants an actual communist economic system. When people say they are against capitalism, most of the time they are criticizing the particular implementation. All economies (aside from a few tiny exceptions) are "mixed" economies. Outside of genuinely radical circles, most debates focus on changin…

[deleted]

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#155

Post by sol_remmy2 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #109

Double_a_92 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a relationship like this: All wealthy countries are capitalist. Some capitalist countries are wealthy.

I am not sure that's accurate. UAE and Saudi are monarchies. Singapore is very socialist, if you look at their housing policy, it's entirely run by the state. They even allocate apartment to ensure that different ethnic groups mix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjPgNBNeLU Also, I would not consider China poor today, and certainly even less so in the future.

> UAE and Saudi are monarchies

This is not as hot of a take as you think. Many reactionaries believe that a monarchy under a good monarch is the ideal government system - much better than a democracy where uninformed voters make so many decisions

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#156

Post by jumbopapa » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

poidos wrote: post #137

_ylmx wrote: post #55

I can't understand what people actually have against capitalism. Most of the times when I hear about the problems of my generation much of it comes down to personal choice. You don't have to go to an expensive college, you don't have to live in the "it" part of town, and you don't have to use your credit card. I've heard so many people complain about the injustices of the world, but at the same time they pay twice as…

This opinion leaves out many of the parts of living in modern society that go beyond what we can choose. Just as a quick example, in the US, you don't choose to get sick and fall into medical debt -- but capitalism underpins the health system that induces that medical debt (which is a major contributor to poverty [0].) It seems like you may be confusing the situation of the people in your immediate circle with the la…

> Just as a quick example, in the US, you don't choose to get sick and fall into medical debt

Are you sure about that? Per the CDC: up to 40 percent of annual deaths from each of five leading US causes are preventable [1]. These are heart disease, cancer, stroke, respiratory disease, and accidents. The causes include: tobacco use, high blood pressure, obesity, drug and alcohol use, lack of seat belt use, lack of motorcycle helmets, etc. All of those could be prevented due to personal choices.

> No one chooses to be born into poverty. No one chooses to lose their job.

They very well may choose to keep using that anchor to their past as a justification why they can't make their future brighter. We need to encourage people to improve their lives and not tell them that they can't do something due to past circumstances.

[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0501-preventable-de...

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#157

Post by scarecrowbob » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #44

wayoutthere wrote: post #8

In the US, it's less active protest and more things like slacking off heavily at work because it's a treadmill we can't win. We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. We as a nation have basically told people "no, you can't have a comfortable life or save for retirement because your parents' generation still needs to get 10% annual growth to make their retirement mat…

Future generations are going to look back critically at this time. So much risk taken, so much sacrificed and burned up, so much opportunity, labor, economic freedom spent, all so that a tiny sliver of people born roughly between 1920 and 1950 can have retirement security, second homes, vacations, and on average a massively higher standard of living than anyone else that’s ever lived or will live in the future. When…

Look, I personally am thinking my time as a nigh ancient wizard serving the grand duke of Taos in the protectorate of far southern Utah is going to feking rad, especially when my son's family finally buys themselves out of serfdom in the Terlinguan grasslands and travels up so I can establish a trans-generational cult that passes on my knowledge of psychoanalytics, electronics, and cultivating fungal ethnogens.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#158

Post by Miner49er » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

gen220 wrote: post #139

Maybe I’m naïve, but to me the word “capitalism” is not an “economic policy” that can be changed through deliberate action, but rather a framework of analysis that makes predictions on supply, demand, and pricing in markets that are varying levels of free. I’m confused when people in my generational cohort say things like “capitalism is unfair” or “capitalism sucks”, in reference to the system of government and benef…

I think in the broadest sense, they mean ending private control of capital.

This means that instead of capital being mostly in the hands of a few (the rich, or the state, in the case of something like China) they want it to be in the control of the people. This would mean that basically the people would control capital democratically, in most cases, but there are other systems like Mutualism which isn't necessarily democratic.

For many, they may want to end markets as well, for various reasons, but markets aren't the same thing as capitalism, as you seem to think.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#159

Post by SlowRobotAhead » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #97

> ... The last economic crisis contributed directly to the rise of populism over the following decade, but the next crisis will come squarely within the age of populism. ... Although the article doesn't mention it, the next recession will also likely come during a powerful wave of job losses tied to automation. Mixing popular resentment over the last debacle in which had few consequences for those responsible with th…

I don’t know about anyone else but I’m tired of the “automation” doomsday predictions that don’t understand we don’t lose jobs, they just transfer with new technology.

Did the cottongin end slavery? No. It make it more efficient.

Did the rail system go away with national highways? No. We have much better last mile access.

Have robots replaced union workers? Union membership has decreased since the 80s, but unemployment has also decreased with a lot more population.

Despite computers we still have secretaries, and librarians, we have massive drilling equipment but also have miners, there are less mounted police and soldiers but despite cars horses are still around. Sailing, boats, and marine related people have jobs despite most travel being by plane. Inventing planes created more jobs than were lost, etc etc.

With every disruptive tech comes opportunity and transition. People aren’t out of jobs despite automation. They’re just in different jobs.

This prediction that there will be a billion people standing around with nothing to do because of robots is wildly naive of history.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#160

Post by ClumsyPilot » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

devsag wrote: post #141

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure that's accurate. UAE and Saudi are monarchies. Singapore is very socialist, if you look at their housing policy, it's entirely run by the state. They even allocate apartment to ensure that different ethnic groups mix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjPgNBNeLU Also, I would not consider China poor today, and certainly even less so in the future.

Singapore has 0% GDP growth and even need a loan from IMF to invest in infrastructure that's laughable for a developed country.

Both true, both completely irrelevant.

Singapore is ranked 3rd in the world by PPP, at $100k The United States is ranked 10th with at $62k

I can come with with hundreds of criteria by which US is laughable, take foreign debt for example, or number of people dying from preventable diseases.