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To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

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Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#391

Post by lonelappde »

crtlaltdel wrote: post #242
PeterStuer wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind a sidequestion: I have worked with and met with probably close to 100 start/scale-up companies in the software domain. I have not yet met a 'brogammer' shop. Some hipster dens, and yes, when the founder is a twenty something you will be hard pressed to find anyone over 30. So is this 'brogrammer frathouse' a regional thing? Or is it maybe a B2C thing as I mostly work with B2B companies?

every startup i’ve been involved with that is compromised of mostly first-time employees (either little work experience in general or no previous startup experience) has exhibited similar tendencies: 1. emphasis on drinking: “gotta have happy hour/get a keg” 2. off-site team building exercises that eat into personal/family time 3. disparaging competition, especially incumbents, often based on superficial things like…

#2 #3 #4 are common at big companies that employ all genders.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#392

Post by romwell »

Grustaf wrote: post #368
romwell wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not sure, consider the same notions without mass murder attached to them. They are socially (and legally) in different leagues. >are there actually any studies on this, or even examples? Yes, there specifically are[1][2][3][4][...]. I'd suggest [1] as a start, and then Google is your friend. [1] https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/when-do-peo... [2] https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-48477-00…

Thanks for the links, I’ll have a look. If you remove the “murder” part from terrorist you basically just have a disgruntled crackpot, but one with political motivations. I know that I’d rather be a theoretical, non violent terrorist than just mentally ill.

An unsuccessful (victimless) terrorist is still a terrorist (e.g. someone who blows up a building, but nobody dies, or the bomb doesn't go off), not merely a disgruntled crackpot.

On the other hand, Osama bin Laden is a terrorist, but very far from being mentally ill. His Letter to America[1] clearly outlines the intent and consequence of his actions.

Terrorists are, by definition, a threat -- but mentally ill people are victims (of mental illness, of society, etc); one is fare more likely to feel sympathy for an ill person vs. someone who is deliberately inflicting terror (as a means to an end or otherwise).

Terrorists can be affiliated to a group, but 'mentally ill' is not a group.

And that's a part of the reason why the labels get attached. 'All ____ are terrorists' is a trope where many will easily fill the blank with . But that won't work with 'All _____ are mentally ill'. A mentally ill person is a one-off, an accident. We don't have to solve that problem because there is no systemic problem. It just happens. The best we could do is think how we could help those people, how we could catch them before they slip.

But terrorism, that's warfare, and we respond to warfare with warfare.

That's the connotation. If you are not seeing it - well, the articles discuss this. Overall it's a part of a greater pattern of how politics shapes language, and language shapes thinking. Orwell had it down back in the 50's [2], and not much has changed since.

[1]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

[2]https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#393

Post by [deleted] »

x220 wrote: post #184
icotyl wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can certainly relate to coming off as weird or socially awkward or unintentionally rude, and it has affected my job interview performance. People diagnosed with ADD/Asperger's don't really have a monopoly on that.

Autistic people are not awkward in the way that you are awkward, unless you're an undiagnosed autistic.

[deleted]

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#394

Post by icotyl »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #320
kls wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person who was a young developer in the .com boom and a middle-age programmer now, I think youth puts too much focus on this and lack experience in this area. I think there is a general opinion that the old guys will ruin everything and serious up the environment. When my experience has been the exact opposite, the old guys usually bring in some good practices the young guys find are good ideas but they really d…

Indeed it is not true that all older engineers will cause this culture clash, but when it happens it’s dramatic and I think that’s what prompts cautiousness when hiring these individuals. It’s an anecdote so take it with a grain of salt, but I’ve had an experience like this with at least a couple of former colleagues on the higher end of the team’s age distribution — they were great people, but none of the younger te…

> "none of the younger team members knew how to relate with them which made day to day interactions a lot more awkward than they would have been otherwise."

If they're out of school and in the workforce, and they don't know how to interact with people older than themselves, that's honestly kind of pathetic.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#395

Post by soulofmischief »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #284
soulofmischief wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) How transparent you are in the fact that you are applying a completely anecdotal and personal experience to the largest possible generalization of ADD/Asperger's. That is very unscientific, and to people like me who deal with ADHD and a few other mental illnesses, downright offensive and prejudiced.

Aspie/ADD affected people often times accuse others, through technical language, how someone's feelings aren't important. Yes, it is unscientific. It's my own personal experience that Aspie/ADD people often can't understand how much pain they can cause other people.

The fact that you are even conflating Asperger's and ADD like this betray how little you know about the disorders. It's not just unscientific, it's insensitive.

It's my own personal experience that Aspie/ADD people often can't understand how much pain they can cause other people.

You listed your father and brother as evidence. Add maybe half a dozen more and that's your entire sample pool. It's amazing that you think this enough for your generalizations to be valid enough to share with others publicly before doing real research about these disorders.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#396

Post by RobertRoberts »

soulofmischief wrote: post #395
RobertRoberts wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aspie/ADD affected people often times accuse others, through technical language, how someone's feelings aren't important. Yes, it is unscientific. It's my own personal experience that Aspie/ADD people often can't understand how much pain they can cause other people.

The fact that you are even conflating Asperger's and ADD like this betray how little you know about the disorders. It's not just unscientific, it's insensitive. It's my own personal experience that Aspie/ADD people often can't understand how much pain they can cause other people. You listed your father and brother as evidence. Add maybe half a dozen more and that's your entire sample pool. It's amazing that you think…

My personal experience is valid to share. And it's not insensitive to share it.

If you feel you have data that counters my experience, it would be good to share. Then we can discuss both sides.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#397

Post by eru »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #300
eru wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can ask that question in writing and with no expectation for an immediate response. Much less terrifying that way. And you'd ask it like: "Here's a bunch of different options for assessing your skills, which one do you think would showcase your strengths best and fits into your schedule etc? Please take your time to think it over, a reply by next week is fine."

ok that makes more sense than how I was envisioning it in my head.

It's still difficult to get this stuff right.

As a related example: a candidate for an onsite interview at Google gets a chaperone for lunch. The lunch companion has no input into the hiring decision. (And the Google hiring process is formalised enough that they really have no input.)

Of course, candidates usually don't 100% believe that and treat lunch as a secret test of character and stay on their toes, just to be safe. That can be very stressful for some people.

(I behaved like that when I was a candidate.)

Similar for the topic at hand: you can't just declare to the candidate that you are going to treat the different forms of assessment you offer as equivalent. You actually have to think of mechanisms to convince them. Lest someone pick a more stressful one than they want for fear of discrimination.

(And there are benefits to the candidates for the interview. For example it's strictly time bounded, so you are not going to obsess and pull an all nighter, because you are afraid that the competition is pulling all nighters.)

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#398

Post by vanniv »

I do wonder if, as we keep progressing down the hiring to fill a company with a maximum number of equally-weighted populations by various identity characteristics, if it will some day become trendy and hip to choose your employees based on who would be most productive without regard for the effect on the identity dimension distribution.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#399

Post by Nasrudith »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #282
Nasrudith wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience) What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable) I would say the exact sa…

Having empathy goes both ways. If one party has empathy and the other does not, it makes the relationship difficult. If 'difficult' is the cut off point for a working relationship for a person, team or business, then that is ok. There are plenty of working environments where difficult relationships can work. But certainly not all of them.

That is completely lacking in selfawareness, showing no empathy while insisting others lack it while giving only a weak rationalization furiously insisted upon. That is peak neurotypical denying that /they/ are the problem because that is impossible - they're the "normal" ones.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#400

Post by Nasrudith »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #290
Smithalicious wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's not intended, but this comment comes off as very mean. I don't know your father and brother, but that kind of assholish behavior is completely different orthogonal to having Aspergers or ADD.

This is the difficulty with Aspergers/ADD. They seem to not recognize that it's healthy and normal to call them on their bad behavior.

That is a narcissistic thing period. When I do it I am justified - when others do they are assholes.
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