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Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

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Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#171

Post by defen »

stvswn wrote: post #90
Zarath wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a trick question in so many ways. Almost every single company in the country pays less than Google. So you could say the same about any non-unionized company too. If unions arose out of poor working conditions then it probably follows that salaries for that work were poor. Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited. These software companies aren't some of the mo…

You are attributing the profitability of software companies to what you think is the "underpaying" of its workers? And you think that unionization will lead to higher wages? I'm just trying to understand the argument. If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the un…

The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be.

> With software, what do you think will happen if a union somehow manages, via Swiss law, to unionize one Google office? It's software. Google will leave and hire elsewhere.

Does Google hire the best people, or is it a "body shop"? If they just shut down their Swiss office and fire everyone, I'd imagine there would be some impact on whatever projects those people were working on. There's a gradient here... if they demand 10x higher salaries, then yeah it's probably not going to work out. But maybe 10% higher salaries would actually be cheaper for Google than shutting everything down and starting over.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#172

Post by sanguy »

occamrazor wrote: post #68
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #16

I'm a SWE at Google, and as much as I love unions, I'm not sure it makes sense for the software industry. Further, the larger tech companies already have a concept of "levels" to ensure some sense of pay equality, we already get better benefits than you can get anywhere else in the states. Realistically, what more will unions accomplish at a place like Google? I'd love 6 weeks of paid vacation as much as anyone. I do…

How many vacation days have Google employees in Switzerland? The legal minimum is 4 weeks, the industry standard is 5 and many companies iffer 6 after a few years.

Let's not forget all the bridge days as well, which are over and above vacation days.

For those reading if a stat holiday falls on Tuesday or Thursday in Switzerland the Monday or Friday is a bridge day and also a holiday.

It gets fantastic when Thursday and Tuesday are holidays so you get a 6 day weekend.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#173

Post by tahdig »

mscasts wrote: post #77

Google has become such a garbage company to be honest. Is anything they do nowadays good and honest? I think Google heavily needs to be split up.

I feel hitting Google with monopoly lawsuits without going after the others would just make it worst.

Atleast Google somehow competes with the Facebook and Amazon which in my view are "more evil".

My other concern is, big co can resist stupid stuff government agencies want, they failed on PRISM but I feel they might have a better chance next time around as employees unionise and demand the company drop supporting unethical contract such as Googles' search engine for China (Project Dragonfly) case etc.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#174

Post by claudeganon »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #156
icelancer wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The culture between Italy and France is much closer than Italy and Algeria. For as much difference there is between the countries in Western Europe, there are far more similarities amongst them compared to other continents and larger regions. Counting Italians as "immigrants" is at the very least slightly misleading.

It is not misleading at all, you have to learn a new language, learn to deal with a different government and laws, we are talking several years of effort until you get accustomed. The differences between accepted social behaviour in Britain, Spain and Poland are significant too. Sure, if you came from Saudi, you'll feel more out of place. But it's not trivial.

I think only Americans can really swallow the canard that “Western European culture” is some uniform thing. If you’ve spent any time around people from the various parts of Europe, you’ll know that they have all kinds of opinion about their neighboring countries, some gentle, some cruel. But all see themselves as quite distinct. Certainly the Swiss do!

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#175

Post by [deleted] »

NewsAware wrote: post #12
trothamel wrote: post #10

I'm by no means familiar with labor law, but are companies (in Switzerland or the US) required to actively support unionization? It seems like it would be one thing to actively oppose unionization, and another thing to require the organizers to provide their own meeting rooms, space, etc. Looking at the article, it seems like this is the latter.

Can only answer for Germany, but yes, here the employer is required to provide for the initial meeting where the first employee committee (Betriebsrat) is elected. This includes rooms, paper etc but in particular informing all employees about the initiative as well as freeing people up during their paid work time so they can attend.

[deleted]

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#176

Post by perl4ever »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #106
stvswn wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing to me how much Europeans do not identify with management, as if management is a class separate from them and not just people who were like them before getting promoted. Do Europeans see themselves as confined in their careers to a "class," and not invested in the competitiveness and profitability of the company they've voluntarily joined? I'm sure these sorts of things are more common in Europe, and it's…

The concerns of management are not identical to the concerns of employees, even in white-collar jobs. This isn't a moral judgement, it's just business reality. For instance, labor is always a cost center. The argument "I cost X but bring in 10X" is great for you (assuming it's true), but from your accounting department's standpoint, replacing you with two less productive workers is better if it turns out that togethe…

Well, this is exactly why I can't truly support "common sense" worker's rights like a higher minimum wage or whatever - I might be that less productive worker, or at least be assumed to be.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#177

Post by perl4ever »

Porthos9K wrote: post #72
dahdum wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hypothetical “real libertarian” would welcome far more than that, and most of it not for the benefit of workers. I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. To provide material support and a platform for unopposed speech on a viewpoint they actively oppose. There’s nothing stopping these employees from doing this on their own free time and with their own resour…

> I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. I think you're indulging in reification here. Google has no best interests because Google is just a legal fiction with no real-world existence apart from its constituent individuals. The investors have their interests. Management has their interests. The workers have their interests. But Google itself has no interests, a…

"the workers whose work makes Google's billions in revenue possible while getting pennies on every dollar of value they provide."

Well, you assume that revenue represents value. How do you even know that? Maybe they are making the world worse on net. In which case, should the workers or investors be liable? I generally feel like it's a nice and fundamental feature of society that they aren't.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#178

Post by barry-cotter »

defen wrote: post #171
stvswn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are attributing the profitability of software companies to what you think is the "underpaying" of its workers? And you think that unionization will lead to higher wages? I'm just trying to understand the argument. If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the un…

The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be. > With software, what do you think will happen if a union somehow manages, via Swiss law, to unionize one Google office? It's software. Google will leave and hire elsewhere. Does Google hire the best people, or is it a "body shop"? If they just shut down their Swiss office and fire eve…

> The first part of your post (seniority-based rules, certifications, etc) shows a lack of imagination in terms of what a union can be.

Precisely because unions are set up to treat members equally they negotiate for the benefit of the median member. Individual unions can fight against the incentives for a while, sure, but first in last out, seniority based pat and restricting entry to keep benefits concentrated among current members crop up everywhere. Yugoslav employee owned companies, the kibbutzim and universities all show the same behaviors because they all face the same incentives. If you think some particular union will be different from the norm provide some argument as to why.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#179

Post by barry-cotter »

Daishiman wrote: post #115
stvswn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are attributing the profitability of software companies to what you think is the "underpaying" of its workers? And you think that unionization will lead to higher wages? I'm just trying to understand the argument. If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the un…

> If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the union) from taking work from existing union members. Other versions of this effect come in the form of union-imposed certification schemes in the trades, "tenure" rules in education, seniority precedence in picking hou…

> Wow, I didn't know the Writer's Guild and Actor's Guild in Hollywood had seniority-based positions.

The Writer’s Guild doesn’t have seniority based positions but it does have seniority based pay. That’s why after you get enough years experience in a writer’s room for tv shows work starts to dry up unless you become a show runner. So after ten or fifteen years of working in tv you have to do something else for many years until your awesome pension kicks in.

The Actor’s Guild does work very hard to dualise acting, black listing anyone who works with non-members. The median member of the SAG doesn’t make much off it but the minimum rates the SAG negotiates mean if you have steady work you’re making a solid living. Without them many more people would be actors and fewer would make decent money at it.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#180

Post by mav3rick »

NelsonMinar wrote: post #136
marmada wrote: post #100

Wouldn't unions at Google be bad. If unions imposed rules guaranteeing seniority benefits/tenure rules that would make it harder for younger workers. I am a fan of unions for blue collar work but unions/labor orgs for higher pay organizations seem to be bad because they prevent foreign workers from entering and they make it harder for young people.

Does Google have older workers? https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2019/07/23/google-set...

Yes they do. Many good experienced engineers.
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