To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#251

Post by wolfgke » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

WillDaSilva wrote: post #80

shadowmore wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ingrained misogyny was so common Was? I wouldn't call it misogyny, because it isn't out of hate but out of the unique social dynamics between genders, but absolutely nothing has changed except one thing: it's now politically incorrect and against the rules to actually say what you think/feel, so everyone hides it. Men and women still don't work well together. The attraction dynamics between them still overpower any…

> Men and women still don't work well together Citations needed. I've never had any issues working with women, nor have I heard any coworkers or friends express this belief, or raise issues about working with members of the opposite gender. I don't think people aren't talking about this because it's "politically incorrect", but rather because most people (at least in Canada) simply don't have any issues working with…

> Being unable to view female coworkers as you do any other coworker is misogynistic, whether it's intentional or not.

Indeed: gender quotas and "positive" discrimination is both misogynistic.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#252

Post by finnthehuman » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #230

finnthehuman wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The example of alpha-maleness I can think of is Paypal: https://twitter.com/SaddestRobots/status/1184885797419401216 The linked post literally accuses PayPal employees of being too big of nerds to talk to (and therefore hire) women. And that's supposed to be an example of alpha-maleness? Maybe it's just bad writing, but if they "could and would" wrestle over disagreements, it sounds more like doing it on a lark rath…

It's performative hypermasculinity. In the 80s and 90s (and to a slightly lesser degree now still) nerds were generally portrayed as effeminate and unmanly. However they would still retain similar toxic ideas about manliness while dismissing "jocks" or anyone too popular or outside their culture. Basically the "while you were busy partying and having sex I studied the way of the sword" meme but played straight. This…

>A "play fight" or a round of Rocket League may not result in physical injury but it's still an aggressive display of dominance rather than a cooperative exchange.

Spoken like someone who was taught a “lens” to read everything in the world. We can just as easily invent the opposite meaning: that they were both insecure about looking bad at their job, and punted on the question of which design is better and settled the question of which design was used with competition neither of them would mind losing. Armchair phsycoanalysis that assumes all men are still 16 year old boys is lazy and insulting.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#253

Post by 0-_-0 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

mkohlmyr wrote: post #189

kortilla wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4:1 is about the ratio of male to female developers anyway so they shouldn’t be doing too bad.

If you take a group that's 4:1 on average, and then apply a subgroup filter which is also typically 4:1, that doesn't imply it comes out at 4:1 on the whole. Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems very likely that their ratio is far worse than that.

You're right, the ratio will be closer to 16:1 after selecting out people with autism from the 4:1 group.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#254

Post by matwood » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #161

dominicr wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. If you want to hang out with your friends and wrestle to decide coding patterns, then that's all well and good. But the second that it becomes a company that employs people it should be more mature, equal and accepting. Work is indeed not always only about output and skills, it's also about respecting each other and collaborating with d…

If you don't mind a sidequestion: I have worked with and met with probably close to 100 start/scale-up companies in the software domain. I have not yet met a 'brogammer' shop. Some hipster dens, and yes, when the founder is a twenty something you will be hard pressed to find anyone over 30. So is this 'brogrammer frathouse' a regional thing? Or is it maybe a B2C thing as I mostly work with B2B companies?

I think it's just a shorthand way to criticize companies that turn people down for whatever reason. As I mentioned in another comment, a shop does not have to be a brogrammer shop for someone to fail the culture fit test.

To your point, there may be brogrammer only shops out there, but I've never seen one. And, as someone who has always played sports, power lifted, and now trains BJJ, I wouldn't want to work for a non-professional brogrammer type shop if I ever came across one. I've wondered before if I didn't fit a culture because I'm not the stereotypical software person.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#255

Post by dominicr » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

finnthehuman wrote: post #216

dominicr wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this isn't common and the use of a memified word was not useful. I think the mental image of "brogrammers" is often literally coding jocks, which is inaccurate. It is often badly used to equate to a homogenous and closed culture within a team, often young and male. However same can indeed happen with other group of people. The example of alpha-maleness I can think of is Paypal: https://twitter.com/Saddes…

>The example of alpha-maleness I can think of is Paypal: https://twitter.com/SaddestRobots/status/1184885797419401216 The linked post literally accuses PayPal employees of being too big of nerds to talk to (and therefore hire) women. And that's supposed to be an example of alpha-maleness? Maybe it's just bad writing, but if they "could and would" wrestle over disagreements, it sounds more like doing it on a lark rath…

That text is all over the place. They go from not hiring someone because they play basketball, to having wrestling as a meditation tool. I'm not going to make assumptions about their wrestling motivations but he openly admits they were gate-keeping based on an internal concept of male "alpha male nerd" culture. This doesn't fit the view of a healthy workplace for those who think diversity brings resiliance & strength to a company.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#256

Post by timwaagh » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:12 PM UTC

pts_ wrote: post #126

They are only hiring testers which is a big resource waste but lots of autists can create kickass software without needing to waste resources on analysis paralysis.

Some of them. Most of them, like most ordinary people, do not have the capability or the discipline for coding. Testing seems to be within the capability of more of them.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#257

Post by electrograv » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #249

icotyl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the opposite experience. I don't have Asperger's or ADD, but I'm shy and struggle with eye contact and small talk. I interviewed at about ten startups, and despite doing well on the technical questions, I got rejected every time. I began to suspect it was because of "culture fit" -- will this 35 year old introvert fit in at our frat house/office? I was getting pretty depressed after all that rejection, but I go…

> I began to suspect it was because of "culture fit" -- will this 35 year old introvert fit in at our frat house/office? The job does not have to be a frat house office in order for a candidate to fail the culture fit. Unfortunately many programmers think programming is 100% writing code, when often times it is more about communication and relationships. If you were missing a certain technical skill what would you do…

But let’s imagine for the moment a candidate was actually rejected for being “too introverted”, as an example for the sake of this argument. Disclaimer: I’ve not seen anyone rejected for this reason explicitly, but I have heard an instance of a self-identifying extrovert reporting “organizational culture problems” to upper management which when asked for details became “while there was no bad or unwelcoming behavior of any kind (not even indirectly), the majority of engineers are too introverted and that makes me uncomfortable”.

In such a case, how is “too introverted” as a reason for rejection or even as a negative cultural connotation not overt discrimination to exclude neurodiversity?

I’d even be willing to concede that such personality-based discrimination may need to be made for customer-facing roles or roles if being charming or extroverted is explicitly part of the job description. But other than that, it seems odd to reject an engineering candidate for reasons like this.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#258

Post by astura » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:19 PM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #124

romwell wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit" You should understand that what you wrote sounds like discrimination by age (and sex, "frat" means male), which is illegal - and for good reasons. EDIT: specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age. I don't hav…

Is it? It's discrimination by things that correlate with age, sure, but many things do.

"Disparate impact"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#259

Post by throw_xyzyz » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

timwaagh wrote: post #244

goatinaboat wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

potential staff undergo a week of working from home fully paid. How does this work for people already employed? Even if you took vacation many employers would take a dim view of you doing paid work for a competitor...

these kinds of shops offer non-competitive compensation, ensuring they are not interesting for those employed elsewhere.

We have a winner.

In my dictionary of corporatese to human "We value diversity" means "We pay between 20-50% of what the market price for your services is".

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#260

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #10

shantly wrote: post #6

> Terms like these – or interview questions such as ‘where you see yourself in five years’ – can be too general for people with autism, as many with the condition can find vague questions particularly hard to decipher. Pretty sure it's not just autistic folks who have to have prepped & memorized some bullshit in advance to have any kind of "acceptable" answer to those sorts of questions. Not to take away from the bro…

Never in my entire career have I been asked the 'where do you see yourself in 5 years' question. It doesn't even make sense in the tech world. In five years? There's a good chance your company/business unit won't exist and I'll be 1-2 jobs on from this one mate. Don't worry about it. It sounds like a hollywood movie cliche you'd hear at an interview scene. I'd laugh if I got that question in an actual interview. I'm…

> Never in my entire career have I been asked the 'where do you see yourself in 5 years' question. It doesn't even make sense in the tech world. In five years? There's a good chance your company/business unit won't exist and I'll be 1-2 jobs on from this one mate. Don't worry about it.

And people wonder why everything in tech is garbage.