To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#241

Post by mywittyname » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:47 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #161

dominicr wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. If you want to hang out with your friends and wrestle to decide coding patterns, then that's all well and good. But the second that it becomes a company that employs people it should be more mature, equal and accepting. Work is indeed not always only about output and skills, it's also about respecting each other and collaborating with d…

If you don't mind a sidequestion: I have worked with and met with probably close to 100 start/scale-up companies in the software domain. I have not yet met a 'brogammer' shop. Some hipster dens, and yes, when the founder is a twenty something you will be hard pressed to find anyone over 30. So is this 'brogrammer frathouse' a regional thing? Or is it maybe a B2C thing as I mostly work with B2B companies?

I've worked at a few and what they had in common was that they were sales-driven and the technology portion of their products tended to be on the simple side.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#242

Post by crtlaltdel » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:49 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #161

dominicr wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. If you want to hang out with your friends and wrestle to decide coding patterns, then that's all well and good. But the second that it becomes a company that employs people it should be more mature, equal and accepting. Work is indeed not always only about output and skills, it's also about respecting each other and collaborating with d…

If you don't mind a sidequestion: I have worked with and met with probably close to 100 start/scale-up companies in the software domain. I have not yet met a 'brogammer' shop. Some hipster dens, and yes, when the founder is a twenty something you will be hard pressed to find anyone over 30. So is this 'brogrammer frathouse' a regional thing? Or is it maybe a B2C thing as I mostly work with B2B companies?

every startup i’ve been involved with that is compromised of mostly first-time employees (either little work experience in general or no previous startup experience) has exhibited similar tendencies:

1. emphasis on drinking: “gotta have happy hour/get a keg”

2. off-site team building exercises that eat into personal/family time

3. disparaging competition, especially incumbents, often based on superficial things like the dated look of their UI or branding

4. periodic episodes where potential investors or current board members are brought to the office and the staff is expected to all be on-site and “look productive”

for context, i’ve been in large enterprises and a number of startups. the startups where the core staff had been through the process before lacked what often gets pegged as the “brogrammer fratdev shop” vibe.

also, almost every shop that got a keggerator or pingpong table ended up using those items to store things...

[note: edited for formatting]

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#243

Post by wodenokoto » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:49 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #10

shantly wrote: post #6

> Terms like these – or interview questions such as ‘where you see yourself in five years’ – can be too general for people with autism, as many with the condition can find vague questions particularly hard to decipher. Pretty sure it's not just autistic folks who have to have prepped & memorized some bullshit in advance to have any kind of "acceptable" answer to those sorts of questions. Not to take away from the bro…

Never in my entire career have I been asked the 'where do you see yourself in 5 years' question. It doesn't even make sense in the tech world. In five years? There's a good chance your company/business unit won't exist and I'll be 1-2 jobs on from this one mate. Don't worry about it. It sounds like a hollywood movie cliche you'd hear at an interview scene. I'd laugh if I got that question in an actual interview. I'm…

> It sounds like a hollywood movie cliche you'd hear at an interview scene. I'd laugh if I got that question in an actual interview.

I did that once. Let's just say it did not help my chances getting the job

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#244

Post by timwaagh » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:50 PM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #174

seibelj wrote: post #3

> Instead of using CVs and interviews, potential employees undergo a basic competency assessment in which they are evaluated against 25 desirable attributes for software testers, such as the ability to learn new systems or take on feedback. Following these initial tests, potential staff undergo a week of working from home fully paid. They still have an interview. It just isn’t like a traditional interview. You need t…

potential staff undergo a week of working from home fully paid. How does this work for people already employed? Even if you took vacation many employers would take a dim view of you doing paid work for a competitor...

these kinds of shops offer non-competitive compensation, ensuring they are not interesting for those employed elsewhere.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#245

Post by vikasg » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

K0SM0S wrote: post #68

shantly wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I had that exact one once early on. I did actually get an "if you could go back in time a couple years, what advice would you give yourself?" a little while ago, which 1) threw me, because I wasn't expecting much of that formula crap from this place, and 2) I hadn't prepped for, so I just punted, being able to think of very little other than things unrelated to work but also lame, cliché, or "don't interview…

I'm curious, what do you think is a "good" answer? Because, from the interviewer standpoint, here's what such questions are about. Prepare to have your mind blown, maybe. 1. Hiring is by far the most stressful, unpredictable, career-destroying part of a manager's job. And that's as an employee, if that's your business (founder, entrepreneur) you're scared shitless that a mistake may plain and simple ruin your busines…

This is the most thoughtful comment I've ever read on HN.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#246

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:54 PM UTC

dominicr wrote: post #138

Leherenn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. If you want to hang out with your friends and wrestle to decide coding patterns, then that's all well and good. But the second that it becomes a company that employs people it should be more mature, equal and accepting. Work is indeed not always only about output and skills, it's also about respecting each other and collaborating with d…

> I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers.

Don’t you think that this should be up to the founders to decide? I would personally much prefer a frat house atmosphere than the more common geeky introvert culture that most technology companies have, but I would not like there to be laws about it.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#247

Post by glouwbug » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #193

otaviokz wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a slightly above average dev in London (and I mean it), I feel that for many big companies the interview process always achieve on thing: to avoid hiring anyone who could really transform it for the better.

That is because in a large company you are hired to support the fiefdom of a manager that wants to claw to the top in the existing structure, not 'transform it for the better'.

Yes because in his mind he already is transforming it for the better

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#248

Post by silveroriole » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

C1sc0cat wrote: post #221

PeterStuer wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind a sidequestion: I have worked with and met with probably close to 100 start/scale-up companies in the software domain. I have not yet met a 'brogammer' shop. Some hipster dens, and yes, when the founder is a twenty something you will be hard pressed to find anyone over 30. So is this 'brogrammer frathouse' a regional thing? Or is it maybe a B2C thing as I mostly work with B2B companies?

It originally started as a Joke as far as I remember, it's now being used as short hand for certain aspects of SV life that are negative or are perceived as negative. I would bet that 90% of developers are not the classic "jock" member of a frat (which is specific to America Univerities) - we are the ones that got bullied by those types at high school. Lets be honest CS students are going to get invited to join the s…

Did you mean are or aren’t? Bullingdon is for rich future Conservatives reading PPE, not for CS students.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#249

Post by matwood » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

icotyl wrote: post #45

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

I had the opposite experience. I don't have Asperger's or ADD, but I'm shy and struggle with eye contact and small talk. I interviewed at about ten startups, and despite doing well on the technical questions, I got rejected every time. I began to suspect it was because of "culture fit" -- will this 35 year old introvert fit in at our frat house/office? I was getting pretty depressed after all that rejection, but I go…

> I began to suspect it was because of "culture fit" -- will this 35 year old introvert fit in at our frat house/office?

The job does not have to be a frat house office in order for a candidate to fail the culture fit. Unfortunately many programmers think programming is 100% writing code, when often times it is more about communication and relationships. If you were missing a certain technical skill what would you do? Now apply that same mindset to being a little less socially awkward. No one is saying you have to learn to be Dale Carnegie himself, but even just a small amount of people skills goes a long way.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#250

Post by dannypgh » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:58 PM UTC

repomies691 wrote: post #173

dominicr wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. If you want to hang out with your friends and wrestle to decide coding patterns, then that's all well and good. But the second that it becomes a company that employs people it should be more mature, equal and accepting. Work is indeed not always only about output and skills, it's also about respecting each other and collaborating with d…

> I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. Usually the founders/owners decide what a company is. Often it seems to me that there are plenty of other motivations to run a company. The founders hire people who they like to hang out with, maybe same hobbies etc. However I personally have never came across a company that could be described as a "frat house" or even which would hav…

> Often it seems to me that there are plenty of other motivations to run a company. The founders hire people who they like to hang out with, maybe same hobbies etc.

There are laws against employment discrimination, and I suggest to you most people aiming for "people who they like to hang out with with" will result in an outcome, intentional or not, of illegal discrimination.