To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#211

Post by michaelt » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:18 AM UTC

otaviokz wrote: post #178

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

As a slightly above average dev in London (and I mean it), I feel that for many big companies the interview process always achieve on thing: to avoid hiring anyone who could really transform it for the better.

What sort of transformations have you been offering, that companies have been avoiding?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#212

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:19 AM UTC

dominicr wrote: post #209

PeterStuer wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is "frat house full of brogrammers" just a meme then? I have always wondered since I first heard the term, as it seems so remote from the reality I experience. And yet, it gets punted around so much you wouldn't think that it would be hard to find a brogrammer shop. On the contrary, going by the 'reputation' you'd think they would be so numerous as to almost be hard to avoid.

I agree that this isn't common and the use of a memified word was not useful. I think the mental image of "brogrammers" is often literally coding jocks, which is inaccurate. It is often badly used to equate to a homogenous and closed culture within a team, often young and male. However same can indeed happen with other group of people. The example of alpha-maleness I can think of is Paypal: https://twitter.com/Saddes…

[deleted]

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#213

Post by renegadesensei » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

It's a fine line companies walk. They want to build a cohesive company identity with aligned values and goals, but they also want diversity, which makes all of that harder. So you have these "culture fit" interviews which are really just conformity checks. "Are you going to get on people's nerves?" is really what they want to see, and the right answer varies by environment. They're asking, "Are you one of us?" No surprise people on the spectrum struggle reading that and end up being either too honest or just too awkward.

"Be yourself" is terrible advice if you want to work at a startup and you're at all out of step with their culture and worldview. As one such person I have learned to mask whatever needs masking.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#214

Post by i_am_proteus » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:40 AM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #154

RobertRoberts wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience) What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable) This means that many socia…

The problem is that if you are aspie not being awkward and rude takes 100% of your brain for conscious analysis, whereas for neurotyoical people it’s the opposite it takes a conscious decision to be rude. So it’s impossible for an aspie to change permanently while working.

This is a pretty important thing for neurotypicals to understand.

Socially, having Asperger's is an uphill battle. When I'm around people, I spend about 75% of my cognitive ability trying to appear to not have Asperger's. I've gotten pretty good at it. Great! One problem: whenever I slip up, it comes across as unbelievably rude. Probably worse than if I were just a "weirdo."

The right answer is a combination of people who are forgiving, but also a work environment that doesn't require constant socializing. That way I can minimize the negative mental health impacts I have on my peers that are a natural byproduct of my existence.

But asking someone with Asperger's to be "less rude" is like watching a short guy struggle to reach a high shelf and then telling him to just be taller.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#215

Post by skohan » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:44 AM UTC

tus88 wrote: post #81

I wonder why they just didn't get rid of normal job interview questions and let a natural conversation unfold. Surely they want to at least meet the person and get a feel for their character.

As someone who sometimes gives interviews, this is how I prefer to handle the problem. I'm not trying litmus-test people based on their answers to specific questions, I'm trying to get a feel for their background, how they think about things, and what it would be like working with them.

My ideal technical interview would be 30 minutes of this kind of open-ended discussion, and then 30 minutes of pair programming, or better yet them walking me through a personal project they care about. But I know there are mixed opinions about hands-on programming during interviews.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#216

Post by finnthehuman » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:47 AM UTC

dominicr wrote: post #209

PeterStuer wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is "frat house full of brogrammers" just a meme then? I have always wondered since I first heard the term, as it seems so remote from the reality I experience. And yet, it gets punted around so much you wouldn't think that it would be hard to find a brogrammer shop. On the contrary, going by the 'reputation' you'd think they would be so numerous as to almost be hard to avoid.

I agree that this isn't common and the use of a memified word was not useful. I think the mental image of "brogrammers" is often literally coding jocks, which is inaccurate. It is often badly used to equate to a homogenous and closed culture within a team, often young and male. However same can indeed happen with other group of people. The example of alpha-maleness I can think of is Paypal: https://twitter.com/Saddes…

>The example of alpha-maleness I can think of is Paypal: https://twitter.com/SaddestRobots/status/1184885797419401216

The linked post literally accuses PayPal employees of being too big of nerds to talk to (and therefore hire) women. And that's supposed to be an example of alpha-maleness? Maybe it's just bad writing, but if they "could and would" wrestle over disagreements, it sounds more like doing it on a lark rather than "alpha-manly" escalation of disagreements into physical violence. I don't practice combat sports, but - as I understand it - two people sparring for the hell of it is fun. Might as well have said they solve disagreements with a round of Rocket League.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#217

Post by sambeau » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 11:00 AM UTC

This is an interesting idea. An interview is a two-way process though, so I wonder how you could ensure that an interviewee could test & probe the company to be sure it's a place that they would like to work in?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#218

Post by michaelt » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 11:00 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #20

shantly wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I had that exact one once early on. I did actually get an "if you could go back in time a couple years, what advice would you give yourself?" a little while ago, which 1) threw me, because I wasn't expecting much of that formula crap from this place, and 2) I hadn't prepped for, so I just punted, being able to think of very little other than things unrelated to work but also lame, cliché, or "don't interview…

> you've basically got to make something up Do you? I just say "sorry, that hasn't happened to me" if I need a 'not applicable' answer. I don't think it's affected my hit rate. I generally just act completely openly and honestly in interviews. Could be a regional thing.

I wouldn't make something up, but you can usually hammer a story into a mould when the need arises. I've never worked with someone I'd call a douchebag, but I've certainly worked with people who have frustrated me by actions like not responding to e-mails, forgetting requests to do things that were their job, and suchlike.

Given this loose criteria, if you tell someone you've never fucked up, and you've never worked with a douchebag, and you've never disagreed with someone at work, they might think you don't have experience working in a medium-sized-or-larger company; or you had managers that insulated you extremely well; or you don't have much self-awareness.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#219

Post by zajio1am » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 11:01 AM UTC

C1sc0cat wrote: post #171

zestyping wrote: post #91

Pet peeve: there is no such thing as a "neurodiverse person". Individual people cannot be more diverse or less diverse than others. Diversity is a property of a group.

Actually it is a thing - it the now accepted term for a wide range/spectrum of conditions Dyslexia Dyspraxia, ADD Aspersers.

So perhaps a better terrm would be 'neuroatypical person'?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#220

Post by wastedhours » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 11:02 AM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #64

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience) What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable) This means that many socia…

It's almost as if an inability to just "change" their behaviour is a part of being on the spectrum, or something...