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Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

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Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#101

Post by Mindless2112 »

all2 wrote: post #46
yongjik wrote: post #42

I think any talk about HSRs in the US should be able to explain US highways. American highway system is arguably one of the best in the world - it's also a gigantic government project, and it's constantly being extended. So how come America, with its proven track record of great highways, is totally impotent with high speed rails? The answer can't be just "American government doesn't work" or "the country is too big.…

Our collective experience with public transportation on rail is AmTrak, which is demonstrably bad compared to other country's rail systems.

Or lack of experience. Want to go from Denver to Albuquerque? The shortest route goes through Illinois. I'd love to take Amtrak -- there's even a station in my city -- but anywhere I want to go, it's faster and cheaper to fly.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#102

Post by smsm42 »

narrator wrote: post #26

I think it's because in the U.S absolutely anyone can tie up this stuff in the court systems for years. There are a lot of environmentalists who have been working overtime to stop this thing. For example: https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/10/24/high-speed-rail-l... . There are seven environmental lawsuits against this thing. How much do you think the legal bills are? There will likely be many more. Edit: There are…

> as if they were a private business and the taxpayer is the owner.

Theoretically that's the case. Practically, the taxpayer ends up owning the downsides, and the government nomenklatura ends up owning the upsides. If you have stock in the company that does that, you can sell. If you have government like that, you can vote for another government, but somehow people never do.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#103

Post by mch82 »

MrMorden wrote: post #96
mch82 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between small, point to point vehicles that operate like taxis and rail is that taxis actually get cars off the road. I attended Hack for LA a couple years back and 1/3 of the traffic in downtown LA is drivers looking for parking. Switching to shared ride transit will decongest the roads.

Charging for parking can fix that problem now.

How? Time would be needed to make an alternative transit option available.

Are you aware the city (and private lots) already charge for parking?

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#104

Post by pas »

Barrin92 wrote: post #40
pretendscholar wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is why? Why are some government entities better at managing large infrastructure projects than other?

More centralised authority, no local counter initiatives that bog them down, less political gridlock and stronger consensus mechanisms, less influence by third parties through lobbying which the US glamorises as free speech, no bias against public transportation and so on. The US almost prides itself in the fact that its government is dysfunctional, that individuals can stop projects at the expense of the general pub…

There is no big problem with going through courts to make sure the project has sufficiently good cost-benefit ratios.

The problem is, that alternatives are not priced comparably, thus the economics simply favors them. (Such as driving or flying.)

If tunneling would be cheaper (in concrete construction costs), then those could go ahead, because there's not much issue about it, it's about as straightforward as flying. (Of course below a certain depth, so no noise and structural concerns arise.)

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#105

Post by CalChris »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #65
CalChris wrote: post #33

The route chosen for CA high speed rail guaranteed failure. SF out to the Central Valley and then in to LA meant a really expensive project which would result in a slow train. This single route through everywhere was necessary for political, particularly Congressional, backing. I'm glad Gavin Newsom cancelled it and I still want HSR. They should start with SLO to San Diego and then a Central Valley line. Finally, con…

Have you read any of the official product planning documents?

If you wish to provide a link I will look at them briefly.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#106

Post by pas »

wwweston wrote: post #70
pxeboot wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people managing these projects are often hired based on political connections, not expertise. And cost overruns usually lead to higher profits, so there is little incentive to keep costs down.

While I’m always a fan of remembering that incentives matter (and believe that some degree citizen attention is a price for a well-functioning government), I would think that a forum full of software engineers could think of other reasons projects go over budget than graft.

It's not graft exactly, but simply the project structure leads to enormous inefficiencies. Eg subcontractors cannot work/meet/organize/plan directly with each other, because financial interests put silly lines in the sand. (Just think about how slow/dumb things can become if the backend, frontend and ops are completely separated, plus there's a middle layer (the general contractor) between them and the stakeholders.)

Plus, it seems that the main problem is that there's simply not enough experience/expertise at governments for managing/planning/executing these projects. Because too few people are in-house (or on payroll/retainer with the right/aligned incentives), and too few projects are done, so no competent team forms over time.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#107

Post by smsm42 »

throwawaytoday5 wrote: post #7
jkw wrote: post #3

California is terrible at managing infrastructure projects.

It's not just California, it's every state and every city in the US. People have an aversion to public works projects often crying about taxes or how the service is useless or not good enough. We have a political system where one major party (out of two) decries any public spending that might help people who aren't millionaires/billionaires/corporations. Is it any wonder when you have evil groups of people spending h…

> People have an aversion to public works projects

People have aversion to public works projects because they routinely see public works projects being mismanaged, hugely overbudget, delayed to geological times, used as source to appropriate public money into private pockets, and paraded for political influence while being badly maintained and chronically broken. I am far from being a millionaire, but I would require a lot of convincing to see how it actually benefits me and doesn't turn into another boondoggle for politicians and contractors. Maybe spending serious chunk of my income on a project that would not happen for decades, would be poorly maintained and I probably won't end up using because they'd screw up something like not having proper access to the endpoints is actually not my interests?

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#108

Post by 1123581321 »

pas wrote: post #92
1123581321 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between a bypass highway and a ring road?

OP probably means that very few highway goes through cities in Europe, whereas you have big highway junctions in cities. (Eg Boston Big Dig.)

That makes sense. Thank you!

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#109

Post by pas »

spaced-out wrote: post #19
pxeboot wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people managing these projects are often hired based on political connections, not expertise. And cost overruns usually lead to higher profits, so there is little incentive to keep costs down.

Is this a problem unique to the US? Or is it just worse in the US than in Taiwan?

Sort of. The US is big and rich (so small mistakes compound into really big expensive errors fast/eventually) and sort of refuses to shop abroad for expertise, because. Reasons.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#110

Post by mch82 »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #61
mch82 wrote: post #54

High speed rail is a bad investment. Rail systematizes discrimination, typically loses money, and struggles to provide a last mile solution. $60B can buy at least 600,000 electric vehicles with 3 million seats. Semi-autonomous vehicles are already capable of operating as a “train” in a dedicated freeway lane and autonomous operation is likely by 2033 (when California’s HSR would begin operation). This solution could…

> autonomous electric vehicles Not to argue, but this doesn’t exist. Not really. Not on the market. Rail, however does exist. Further, what is the mileage equivalent of cars vs rail? I don’t know, but I think it would favor mass transit rail. You also compared electric cars to taxi drivers - that’s odd. > Rail systematizes discrimination Can you expand further on this?

> autonomous electric vehicles... Not to argue, but this doesn’t exist.

That’s a fair critique. The original version of my comment assumed a lot & I’ve hopefully restated it in more achievable terms.

I don’t think we can turn on autonomy today & it would work. I do think investing in getting an autonomous transit system in place by the 2030s is a better use of my CA tax dollars than a train.

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