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Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

desertsun.com

31–40 of 156 posts

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#31
post #12

As an outsider from Europe: what I see that americans hate any publicly funded projects. "If it doesn't benefit me why should I pay taxes for that?" See the whole healthcare system. "I'm healthy, never sick why should I pay the cancer treatment of those who are obese and smoke all the time?" That's totally different in Europe. Not just in the nordic countries but generally everywhere. So the same applies for public t…

Californians voted for the high speed rail project in a ballot initiative.

And they aren’t going to get what they were promised. With boondoggles like these, it shouldn’t be a surprise why American’s are against infrastructure projects. It’s all over promising and under delivering

The same thing happened with the East span of the Bay Bridge.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#32
post #20

For an article with quite a few numbers, it seems to be missing some basic ones: * Taiwan, area 36,197 km^2, population density 651 / km^2 [1] * California, area 403,932 km^2, population density 97 / km^2 [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories...

Most of Taiwan is fairly mountainous and empty. Most of the population is in a few cities (Kaohsiung Taichung Tainan Taipei Taoyuan). It's enough to connect them with high-speed trains, and that's what happened.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#33
The route chosen for CA high speed rail guaranteed failure. SF out to the Central Valley and then in to LA meant a really expensive project which would result in a slow train. This single route through everywhere was necessary for political, particularly Congressional, backing. I'm glad Gavin Newsom cancelled it and I still want HSR. They should start with SLO to San Diego and then a Central Valley line. Finally, connect SFO (yup, San Francisco International Airport) to SLO.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#34
post #20

For an article with quite a few numbers, it seems to be missing some basic ones: * Taiwan, area 36,197 km^2, population density 651 / km^2 [1] * California, area 403,932 km^2, population density 97 / km^2 [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories...

The total area of the state isn't too relevant, since California isn't exactly proposing to build HSR to Eureka or Redding. It's true that California's project is larger-scale, but by 2x: Taiwan has a single 200-mile HSR line, and California is trying to build a single 400-mile line.

Taiwan has 1/5th the GDP of California. So, it’s more like California had even lower goals than Taiwan.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#35
post #20

For an article with quite a few numbers, it seems to be missing some basic ones: * Taiwan, area 36,197 km^2, population density 651 / km^2 [1] * California, area 403,932 km^2, population density 97 / km^2 [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories...

The total area of the state isn't too relevant, since California isn't exactly proposing to build HSR to Eureka or Redding. It's true that California's project is larger-scale, but by 2x: Taiwan has a single 200-mile HSR line, and California is trying to build a single 400-mile line.

How many potential riders live along each respective corridor? How many people want to travel between San Jose and Bakersfield vs Taipei and Kaohsiung?

I’d guesstimate an order of magnitude lower as proposed; the California plan doesn’t make much sense to me without extending the line 100 miles further from Bakersfield to LA.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#37
post #29
post #20

For an article with quite a few numbers, it seems to be missing some basic ones: * Taiwan, area 36,197 km^2, population density 651 / km^2 [1] * California, area 403,932 km^2, population density 97 / km^2 [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories...

That's a nonsequitur. The California coast is pretty dense, the rest of the state has large amounts of empty space and national parks. Nobody would build a high-speed rail through Yosemite or Death Valley.

The same is also true of Taiwan to a smaller degree. They have a populated coast and then a sparse interior.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan#/media/...

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#38
post #25
post #20

For an article with quite a few numbers, it seems to be missing some basic ones: * Taiwan, area 36,197 km^2, population density 651 / km^2 [1] * California, area 403,932 km^2, population density 97 / km^2 [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories...

How does BART compare?

It doesn’t. Taipei’s MRT is also lightyears ahead of BART.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#39
The California HSR has a lot of problems not matched in Taiwan.

Firstly, once you get from San Jose to Bakersfield, then what? We don't have good public transit in LA, much less to Bakersfield. But even if the train went all the way to Union Station in Los Angeles, you'd still need to rent a car to get anywhere useful, or take Uber/Lyft. And same thing on the other end. What happens when you get to San Jose? You still need a car or another slow train.

If you want to get from San Francisco to Disneyland via HSR, the entire trip would probably take you about six hours with all the train changes and car rides and waiting. You could do the drive in six hours too and then have your car at the other end.

Even today, if I want to visit my parents in the suburbs of LA coming from the suburbs of San Jose, I can make the drive in five hours, or spend five hours getting there by plane, assuming someone picks me up at the other end. The only reason I fly is if I happen to be going somewhere right near the airport or it will be rush hour at one end or another when I arrive because I don't have scheduling flexibility.

Secondly, the original proposal was to build Stockton to Fresno first. That would be the least used section of the line. Not a lot of people move between Stockton and Fresno. The train would be bankrupt before it ever got to phase two. At least they finally changed their mind on that, but not for a much better route.

To be remotely viable, they need to build the most trafficked parts first -- San Jose to Stockton and Bakersfield to Los Angeles. But even those lines would still suffer from problem one unless/until the local transit was vastly improved.

I would love to see a viable HSR in California, but the current proposal is not that.

Let's build up our local transit first in LA and the Bay Area so that when we connect them with a high speed rail, the rail is actually useful.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#40
post #3

California is terrible at managing infrastructure projects.

The question is why? Why are some government entities better at managing large infrastructure projects than other?

More centralised authority, no local counter initiatives that bog them down, less political gridlock and stronger consensus mechanisms, less influence by third parties through lobbying which the US glamorises as free speech, no bias against public transportation and so on.

The US almost prides itself in the fact that its government is dysfunctional, that individuals can stop projects at the expense of the general public. One just needs to look at the countless of Hollywood movies where some lone Erin Brockovich-esque hero stands up to 'the machine', with the question rarely being raised what the collective costs and trade-offs are, or whether there's even a rational case to be made for the resistance.

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