Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement • Hacker News Board

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#131

Post by panda88888 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

lordgrenville wrote: post #128

lammalamma25 wrote: post #119

Ignoring the debate about its usefulness, I have a really hard time with the line of thinking that minority/disadvantaged populations do poorly on the test therefore it is discriminatory. Everyone takes the same test. Preparing for it more (prep classes etc) will make you do better. That is true, but what does a non discriminatory measure look like then? Unless it has exactly proportional results then it can be calle…

One suggestion I like is to totally change the test format every year. This would basically invalidate test prep and put everyone on the same footing.

This would give the wealthy even more advantage because they have the time and resources to throw at the test compared to the poor.

The test changes every year? No problem, just prep for the meta test like how people prep for the FAANG interviews. Multiple formats? No problem, just spend more time preparing for each format. Changing topics? No problem, just cover as many topics as necessary.

I think the key is to see that the poor, by definition, have much less time and money to tackle the problem. Therefore, to have a level playing field we should design the test such that prep may help, but there is a ceiling to it, and I think the SAT is somewhat decent in this respect.

The optimal test strategy can be covered in one afternoon. The format is well known and cheap study guides/sample tests are available pretty much everywhere. If the test changes every year, imagine how much more difficult it would be for a poor student to prep for it.

Edit: typo

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#132

Post by zifnab06 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #127

zifnab06 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a solid B student in high school. I got a 35 on the ACT, which apparently helped me land a scholarship. So same boat as you. Except I then it lost due to being a depressed anxious wreck, not showing up to classes, switching majors 2-3 times and finally dropping out after 5 years full time + 2 years part time + 50k in student loan debt. It's fine now though, apparently degrees aren't all that important for most…

Did you end up moving? I’ve heard the change in location, diet and lack of friend group can sometimes cause depression.

I moved for college to a small town with a decent engineering school, along with two very good friends from high school (we're still friends today). The town itself was rather depressing, the school was mostly male, and there wasn't much to do outside of drink or video games. The town is an economic black hole, about what you'd expect for somewhere with 10,000 people in rural America. The school was good though.

I'm doing much better these days. I ended up taking an internship somewhere local, working more / doing worse at school because I was actively avoiding it. I will say this was mostly a personal problem - I really don't do well sitting and listening to people talk about subjects I don't find interesting.

I eventually moved to Seattle, switched jobs a few times, and now work remotely for a company I (so far) love. Remote + unlimited PTO (ish, it's capped at 2 continuous weeks per quarter) has given me an excuse to travel to wherever I want. Life's now a blast :)

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#133

Post by trhway » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

lammalamma25 wrote: post #119

Ignoring the debate about its usefulness, I have a really hard time with the line of thinking that minority/disadvantaged populations do poorly on the test therefore it is discriminatory. Everyone takes the same test. Preparing for it more (prep classes etc) will make you do better. That is true, but what does a non discriminatory measure look like then? Unless it has exactly proportional results then it can be calle…

>What sort of test/measure can you create that will make having resources to prepare for it more than someone else not matter?

because on that dependence on resources the SAT/ACT results statistics is also an index for discrimination like DJIA/NASDAQ is an index for economy. And right now the index is shamefully low. So, like in that joke, there are 2 ways to fix the situation - a "fantasy" way of successfully fighting discrimination and making sure that everybody has sufficient resources, etc. and a "realistically practical" way of just dropping the index. Looks like the society is choosing the realistically practical way.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#134

Post by freetime2 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #86

freetime2 wrote: post #75

As someone who dealt with severe depression during high school, I feel like the SATs really helped me out during college admissions time. Just getting out of bed every day was a real struggle for me and as a result my attendance was poor, my grades were spotty, and I didn’t have any formal extra curriculars I could show off. But I did get the highest SAT scores in my class, and I feel like that helped demonstrate tha…

I had the opposite -- near perfect test scores and shoddy grades. Ended up having to go to community college because no schools would have me. (It ended up working out for the better, I eventually made my way through an associates and saved a TON of money, got my bachelors, and have been quite successful.)

Community colleges are awesome. My high school let me take a class at a local community college during the summer to make up for an “incomplete” mark I got during the school year. I remember the class being made up of people like me who didn’t have a good run in high school for whatever reason and were trying to get their lives on track. Or people who had moved to the US from other countries with very little and were trying to improve their lives. I enjoyed that class, and for someone who had grown up in a relatively sheltered suburban town it helped open my eyes to the real world.

If I had not been accepted into college out of high school (and I’m sure I came very, very close) I probably would have gone the same route as you. My state even has a program where if you get good grades at a community college for 2 years, you can transfer to a state university and also get a huge discount on tuition (effectively paying community college prices to attend a flagship state university).

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#135

Post by danieltillett » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

panda88888 wrote: post #131

lordgrenville wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One suggestion I like is to totally change the test format every year. This would basically invalidate test prep and put everyone on the same footing.

This would give the wealthy even more advantage because they have the time and resources to throw at the test compared to the poor. The test changes every year? No problem, just prep for the meta test like how people prep for the FAANG interviews. Multiple formats? No problem, just spend more time preparing for each format. Changing topics? No problem, just cover as many topics as necessary. I think the key is to see…

If is it just resources how do the poor from certain cultures manage to do well on the standardised tests while other cultures with upper middle class incomes underperform? The problem is a lot more complex than just money.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#136

Post by danieltillett » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

fiftyfifty wrote: post #122

xyzzyz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, hi…

That doesn't jive with the submitted article in the Washington Post: "Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother’s education level and race. The College Board and ACT Inc., which owns the ACT, say their tests are predictive of college success, but (as with many education issues) there is also research showing otherwise." There are studies that have shown rigor…

This is because all of these factors are heavily g loaded.

I do agree with your last sentence.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#137

Post by anon1m0us » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #95

freetime2 wrote: post #75

As someone who dealt with severe depression during high school, I feel like the SATs really helped me out during college admissions time. Just getting out of bed every day was a real struggle for me and as a result my attendance was poor, my grades were spotty, and I didn’t have any formal extra curriculars I could show off. But I did get the highest SAT scores in my class, and I feel like that helped demonstrate tha…

I do think this is an important take. colleges should avoid relying excessively on a single measure of aptitude to evaluate applicants for this reason. there are lots of bright kids who struggle in high school but really blossom in college if they're given a chance. that said, I was in a similar position to you in high school. I would always get one of the highest scores in the class on tests/exams but usually get a…

What you and the GP are saying is completely in line with the lack of experience in the system needed to teach high aptitude students. Some blame the problem partly on No Child Left Behind, which said everyone needs to pass, but said nothing about those who are well beyond passing. But I think it started way before that. I went through a lot of the educational options, that were later discovered to not work so well. Many are listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifted_education I was tested in 1st grade and the school system said I should go to 2nd, but my mother didn't allow it. That was a mistake. Same thing happened in 8th grade. This time, the school system wouldn't let me progress. I have recently learned this was bad for both me and society, unfortunately.

Likely you and many others here and elsewhere as well, including children of those reading this, which is why I write it. If you have a gifted child, promote them! Learn about their needs and get them the educational resources they and society deserve.

The problems you both mention are the result of forcing gifted students to follow a mass education system. Evidence shows that such students should be in an IEP (Individualized Education Program). Many times, the gifted students also have problems with anxiety, depression, social isolation which makes them what's called "Twice Exceptional" students. Such students are written off, like you were, because teachers can't comprehend why such a bright student would struggle.

Such students are also misdiagnosed with ADHD, aspergers, anti-socialism, etc. A poignant distinction between giftedness and aspergers I just read recently is that the aspergers student is a social outcast and has no idea. The gifted student is a social outcast and feels terrible about it.

I think it's a huge injustice. The minds and capabilities of our brightest are a gift to our society and we are letting the treasures waste away.

I've been struggling a lot lately with a lot of issues and re-discovering the problems gifted people have in society has helped me put it back into perspective. What I and you and probably lots others are experiencing aren't the result of something being "wrong" with you, but rather perhaps too much of a good thing can be a bad thing?

For more info:

http://www.sengifted.org

https://www.sengifted.org/post/can-you-hear-the-flowers-sing...

http://www.stephanietolan.com/gifted_ex-child.htm

http://www.metagifted.org/topics/gifted/adultGiftedness/

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/gifted_adults.htm

http://www.giftedservices.com.au/adults.html

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#138

Post by csommers » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #95

freetime2 wrote: post #75

As someone who dealt with severe depression during high school, I feel like the SATs really helped me out during college admissions time. Just getting out of bed every day was a real struggle for me and as a result my attendance was poor, my grades were spotty, and I didn’t have any formal extra curriculars I could show off. But I did get the highest SAT scores in my class, and I feel like that helped demonstrate tha…

I do think this is an important take. colleges should avoid relying excessively on a single measure of aptitude to evaluate applicants for this reason. there are lots of bright kids who struggle in high school but really blossom in college if they're given a chance. that said, I was in a similar position to you in high school. I would always get one of the highest scores in the class on tests/exams but usually get a…

They don’t need to inquire why when the vast majority of students fall into the former category.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#139

Post by haihaibye » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

fiftyfifty wrote: post #122

xyzzyz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, hi…

That doesn't jive with the submitted article in the Washington Post: "Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother’s education level and race. The College Board and ACT Inc., which owns the ACT, say their tests are predictive of college success, but (as with many education issues) there is also research showing otherwise." There are studies that have shown rigor…

I thought the best measure was to combine school grades and tests. But grades are so subjective - who has time to evaluate the rigor of a school curriculum, the teacher teaching it and a student learning it each year? Hence standardized tests.

> Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother’s education level and race.

So is IQ, school and career success - and anything that predicts them, which is supposedly what we want.

But innate differences are crimethink, so best shift from measure with predictive ability to those that give the desired results.

> I think we can all agree that allowing two private companies to be the gate keepers of higher education is a terrible idea

Yes, in my country this is done by the government.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#140

Post by xyzzyz » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

fiftyfifty wrote: post #122

xyzzyz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, hi…

That doesn't jive with the submitted article in the Washington Post: "Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother’s education level and race. The College Board and ACT Inc., which owns the ACT, say their tests are predictive of college success, but (as with many education issues) there is also research showing otherwise." There are studies that have shown rigor…

This WaPo quote is a good example of a common practice in modern journalism, which is to write something which literally is true, but leaves the reader with the wrong impression of the reality.

Yes, the rich people tend to do better on SAT. So? Why would anyone expect all groups to do equally well on SAT? There is no problem with that. It would only be a problem if SAT had different predictive validity between the rich and the poor, that is, poor people with a given SAT score had different outcome in predicted variable than the rich people. By and large it is not true.

> The College Board and ACT Inc., which owns the ACT, say their tests are predictive of college success, but (as with many education issues) there is also research showing otherwise."

Of course there is research showing otherwise. There always is. The real question here, which WaPo is eliding, is what’s the preponderance of evidence, and it overwhelmingly is on the side of high predictive validity of SAT. Don’t believe me, see for yourself: go to Google Scholar and search for “sat predictive validity”.

> There are studies that have shown rigor of high school course work is the strongest predictor of college success: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Study-Says-Rigor-of/8973

It is marginally better than SAT, and it’s worse than GPA + SAT. I predict if we dropped SAT, it’s predictive validity would fall significantly, because it’s much easier to game GPA than to game SAT.

> I think we can all agree that allowing two private companies to be the gate keepers of higher education is a terrible idea.

Where I went to school, a government agency designs the test, of which all students take the exact same version on exact same date. Universities by and large exclusively consider the score in admissions. I think it’s superior system, more fair and egalitarian.