Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement • Hacker News Board

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#121

Post by xyzzyz » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #115

xyzzyz wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve also learned a lot in my degrees, and greatly enjoyed my time in the university. However, I’ve only ever needed a tiny fraction of what I learned there in my jobs at Google and Facebook.

... what were your degrees? I'm assuming you're a programmer? I only had a BA in comp sci, and almost every CS course I've taken has been useful to some degree. Operating Systems, Data Structures, Programming Languages, even Theory of Computation. Sure most of the day-to-day is people skills and rote programming. Strategically Comp Sci has been very valuable in the long run.

I have bachelors degrees in Computer Science and in Mathematics, and a Master degree in Mathematics (getting Masters is common and expected in the country I’m from).

My friends who only have mathematics degrees have jobs where their extensive training in abstract mathematics is mostly (eg insurance and finance jobs, which only use small fraction of what you learn in a math degree), or wholly (lots of them are software engineers) irrelevant.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#122

Post by fiftyfifty » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #44

kdmccormick wrote: post #37

Have all the commenters here assuming that this is a misguided attempt that'll end up letting any idiot into degree programs as long as they are labeled "diverse" considered that maybe, possibly standardized tests aren't necessarily a good measure of one's ability to a learn well through a degree program? That maybe the ability to answer hundreds of multiple choice questions and write five-paragraph essays in several…

It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, hi…

That doesn't jive with the submitted article in the Washington Post:

"Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother’s education level and race. The College Board and ACT Inc., which owns the ACT, say their tests are predictive of college success, but (as with many education issues) there is also research showing otherwise."

There are studies that have shown rigor of high school course work is the strongest predictor of college success: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Study-Says-Rigor-of/8973

I think we can all agree that allowing two private companies to be the gate keepers of higher education is a terrible idea.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#123

Post by privateSFacct » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

As someone doing hiring we have begun doing a very basic screening exam - quick writing sample, some basic (EXTREMELY basic) applied work - 1st year college quality is fine.

We have folks with degrees who can barely string together the most basic concepts (literally out of the intro to X course) in their field.

I'm seriously curious how this is even possible. Yes - some are from degree mill places - but even those have to be teaching something for the $$? Is it the pressure of being tested that is throwing folks off? Do people forget what they learned and are not really tested as they progress? We let them sit on their own, use computer etc. If you do hiring do a 5-10 minute screening test at some point - it can be eye opening.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#124

Post by fortran77 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 8:49 PM UTC

zelly wrote: post #55

How about a SAT test but instead of getting into a college you get a job. Bring back aptitude testing for employment so we don't have to go through this college rigmarole.

Not legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

And a more recent case from an employer that was trying to be more careful: https://fortune.com/2015/08/24/target-discriminatory-hiring/

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#125

Post by fortran77 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 8:52 PM UTC

joshmn wrote: post #98

I wasn't the best student in high school (2.65GPA) but I did have excellent standardized test scores. I feel like they really helped me in my college hunt and were a significant factor into getting accepted into some of the schools I did. There are other people like myself who are just bad students for one reason or another. A student's future prospects of education shouldn't be dependent on just test scores or a GPA…

And it corrects for kids who go to fancy private schools where grades are highly inflated (it's what parents are paying for, after all). The standardized tests correct for inflated grades.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#126

Post by trianglem » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 8:52 PM UTC

privateSFacct wrote: post #123

As someone doing hiring we have begun doing a very basic screening exam - quick writing sample, some basic (EXTREMELY basic) applied work - 1st year college quality is fine. We have folks with degrees who can barely string together the most basic concepts (literally out of the intro to X course) in their field. I'm seriously curious how this is even possible. Yes - some are from degree mill places - but even those ha…

Hiring for what?

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#127

Post by r00fus » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 8:53 PM UTC

zifnab06 wrote: post #120

freetime2 wrote: post #75

As someone who dealt with severe depression during high school, I feel like the SATs really helped me out during college admissions time. Just getting out of bed every day was a real struggle for me and as a result my attendance was poor, my grades were spotty, and I didn’t have any formal extra curriculars I could show off. But I did get the highest SAT scores in my class, and I feel like that helped demonstrate tha…

I was a solid B student in high school. I got a 35 on the ACT, which apparently helped me land a scholarship. So same boat as you. Except I then it lost due to being a depressed anxious wreck, not showing up to classes, switching majors 2-3 times and finally dropping out after 5 years full time + 2 years part time + 50k in student loan debt. It's fine now though, apparently degrees aren't all that important for most…

Did you end up moving? I’ve heard the change in location, diet and lack of friend group can sometimes cause depression.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#128

Post by lordgrenville » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:00 PM UTC

lammalamma25 wrote: post #119

Ignoring the debate about its usefulness, I have a really hard time with the line of thinking that minority/disadvantaged populations do poorly on the test therefore it is discriminatory. Everyone takes the same test. Preparing for it more (prep classes etc) will make you do better. That is true, but what does a non discriminatory measure look like then? Unless it has exactly proportional results then it can be calle…

One suggestion I like is to totally change the test format every year. This would basically invalidate test prep and put everyone on the same footing.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#129

Post by astura » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:02 PM UTC

zelly wrote: post #55

How about a SAT test but instead of getting into a college you get a job. Bring back aptitude testing for employment so we don't have to go through this college rigmarole.

That does exist, some government positions are filled using civil service exams.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#130

Post by lammalamma25 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:09 PM UTC

lordgrenville wrote: post #128

lammalamma25 wrote: post #119

Ignoring the debate about its usefulness, I have a really hard time with the line of thinking that minority/disadvantaged populations do poorly on the test therefore it is discriminatory. Everyone takes the same test. Preparing for it more (prep classes etc) will make you do better. That is true, but what does a non discriminatory measure look like then? Unless it has exactly proportional results then it can be calle…

One suggestion I like is to totally change the test format every year. This would basically invalidate test prep and put everyone on the same footing.

I've definitely like that as a thought experiment. Whether these tests assess your capabilities is already questionable. I wonder if there would be any objective way to measure outcomes if the tests were entirely different from one year to the next.