Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement • Hacker News Board

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#51

Post by vinay427 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

wyxuan wrote: post #50

I think there are a lot cynics here, but they should take the test before you really understand why SAT/ACT is stupid as an admission req. Source: Took the test

I think the view of many of these supposed cynics is that the alternatives are even less consistent and are more conducive to biases and corruption than a standardized test, even if the test is not optimal in measuring someone's academic abilities. No one is saying they're perfect.

I have taken both tests and while I clearly found them imperfect (as with virtually every test), I would also say that they're far from useless or "stupid" as a requirement.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#52

Post by zaroth » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

vntx wrote: post #46

spicyusername wrote: post #21

No disagreement that there are fundamental elements of our socio-economic system that suppress certain groups of people, but this approach seems to be tackling this problem from an extremely misguided direction. The end goal is certainly to increase college enrollment among groups who have historically been underrepresented, and removing all academic and skill prerequisites from academic and skilled trades programs w…

Agreed, this approach is misguided. Removing standardized tests removes a useful metric admissions can use to analyze applicants as part of a holistic process. Is it a perfect metric? No, but the scores are good predictors for diligence which is crucial for college success. If you need to go to college to develop fundamental critical thinking skills, then something is very, very wrong with your basic education system…

The challenge is that the environment that is predisposed to produce teenagers with a well rounded educational foundation and well developed critical thinking and studying skills... tend to be affluent households that can afford to move to areas with great schools, and send their kids to a constant stream of extracurriculars.

That’s not to say it’s impossible to succeed in adverse conditions, but it’s inane to pretend conditions are on average not more adverse for certain populations.

There’s a fundamental question of identity some colleges are struggling with. To put it in exaggerated terms - do they want to be ivory tower institutes of learning, or do they want to be a kaleidoscope of all of the next generation who do not want to go on to trade work?

For people who want to go to college purely for rigorous academic study with the brightest young academic minds, this is going to be a shift. The populations will be formed less so based purely on that narrow selection criteria.

It’s a progression which has been happening for decades, but as it seems in many things, the rate of change is accelerating.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#53

Post by droithomme » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

The article says it's top ranked schools but then gives a list of a lot of lesser known colleges, for profit mills like U. Phoenix, a whole bunch of theological schools, Yeshivas and Talmud institutes, trade colleges, and bottom tier state colleges (for example for new high school grads, CSU is test optional but UC is not).

Yes there's also a handful of colleges that are known.

Most the ones listed it's understandable they don't mandate the tests and rely on other criteria or are colleges that simply have very high acceptance rates. Also most of them, like all the theology and trade schools, have never mandated the tests so there's no real change there.

For academically rigorous schools just because the test is optional doesn't mean you won't need a stellar application and recommendations in order to be accepted if you choose not to send in test results. Also doesn't mean you won't completely lose out on very helpful scholarships that have standardized test cut off points.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#54

Post by transcriptase » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

reilly3000 wrote: post #22

mrfusion wrote: post #20

What’s the alternative to these tests?

Grades and all of the other factors admissions people like to look at, like volunteer work, extra-curricular activities, projects, essays, etc.

The issue I've observed is that those on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum are put at a disadvantage when these are given higher weighting. The teenager with wealthy parents can participate in (expensive) extracurricular activities like team sports or take summers off to volunteer... not because they're virtuous, but because someone along the way told them it's a good way to pad their admissions applications.

Meanwhile the brilliant high-school student without parents who can afford these things is less likely to participate in activities requiring investment in equipment or logistics of getting to/from events. Instead of being able to spend a summer volunteering on a hospital ship off the coast of Africa, they're working retail to save up spending money for the year or reduce their student loan burden.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#55

Post by zelly » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

How about a SAT test but instead of getting into a college you get a job. Bring back aptitude testing for employment so we don't have to go through this college rigmarole.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#56

Post by TomVDB » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

kthejoker2 wrote: post #27

goatinaboat wrote: post #24

I did the GMAT years ago and more than anything it is a test of how diligently you prepare for it. Guess what, people who diligently prepare for things tend to succeed at them! That’s Batman’s entire superpower! And those are the kind of people who will succeed regardless of what universities they go to.

Sounds like a really useful signal detector then.

The SAT and ACT are a fantastic detector to identify rich and motivated parents who are willing to drop off their kid for 2 years at cramming centers for weekly tutoring sessions and trial tests... and who are willing to pay thousands for it.

I’ve been there, his scores went up significantly. I don’t think it made him smarter in any way.

Combine that with our ability to buy a house in a very good school district and send him to expensive summer camps in Tahoe where he can “develop leadership skills” and “contribute to the community” and you have the perfect applicant.

I’m proud parent, and I want my child to get all the opportunities, but the cards were very heavily stacked in favor of him.

It’s all bullshit.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#57

Post by downrightmike » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #7

This is because they want to enroll people too stupid to solve basic math problems.

Yes and because that will at least get them one semester out of these kids, which will probably need student loans. Even in state tuition will be many thousands of dollars that will trap these kids.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#58

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

kdmccormick wrote: post #37

Have all the commenters here assuming that this is a misguided attempt that'll end up letting any idiot into degree programs as long as they are labeled "diverse" considered that maybe, possibly standardized tests aren't necessarily a good measure of one's ability to a learn well through a degree program? That maybe the ability to answer hundreds of multiple choice questions and write five-paragraph essays in several…

If you have a data driven alternative measure for predicting student success, by all means offer one. The reality is, schools want to discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics.

Edit: You have to understand, these people genuinely, religiously believe that a racially diverse student body is somehow better. It's utterly naive to think their motivation is better evaluating student potential.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#59

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:27 PM UTC

wyxuan wrote: post #48

SamReidHughes wrote: post #7

This is because they want to enroll people too stupid to solve basic math problems.

If they can't solve math problems, then it will be reflected in their math course load and their grades in those courses.

Yes, and they can ignore that information using holistics.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#60

Post by chongli » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

zelly wrote: post #55

How about a SAT test but instead of getting into a college you get a job. Bring back aptitude testing for employment so we don't have to go through this college rigmarole.

I don’t think employers want that. They like 4 year college degrees not only because they demonstrate a modicum of intelligence but also because they demonstrate conformity and conscientiousness, as well as the ability to delay gratification. Employers like conformist workers who will put up with boring work without complaint.

A person who does really well in high school and aces their SATs but refuses to go to college sends a signal of nonconformity and a lack of conscientiousness. This is the type of person who may be very smart and highly skilled and also likely to get bored and leave for a different job.