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Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

washingtonpost.com

21–30 of 159 posts

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#21
No disagreement that there are fundamental elements of our socio-economic system that suppress certain groups of people, but this approach seems to be tackling this problem from an extremely misguided direction.

The end goal is certainly to increase college enrollment among groups who have historically been underrepresented, and removing all academic and skill prerequisites from academic and skilled trades programs would certainly increase enrollment numbers, but by totally devaluing those programs in the process.

The enrollment and degree isn't what we should be trying to provide these groups it's the underlying knowledge and skills so they are prepared for these academic programs in the first place. This approach, though, is almost worse than doing nothing because it's pretending to help when it's actually just hurting everyone and serving the interests of the student loan industry in the process.

There was a story in the news that broke recently of a high school doing exactly what this is describing, sneaking disadvantaged kids into ivy league colleges when they didn't have any of the skills or knowledge required for the degree programs. Obviously it didn't go well.

You can find more information at

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/03/672817734/the-reality-of-t-m-...

There was also a really great Feakonomics podcast talking about America's math curriculum and how the SAT is changing to focus on the right kinds of skills.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/math-curriculum/

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#23
post #9

Next: no grades needed to get BS, MA, PhD. and no attendance necessary. After all some groups are at a disadvantage and they will not be able to attend the classes.. While we're at it - why don't we have The Degree Lottery (tm), or better yet, give degrees right after conception.

> Next: no grades needed to get BS, MA, PhD. and no attendance necessary. "Soft-science" degrees from diploma-mill universities are already waaay ahead of you!

Or Masters degrees from U.K. ex-polys for any overseas student.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#24
I did the GMAT years ago and more than anything it is a test of how diligently you prepare for it. Guess what, people who diligently prepare for things tend to succeed at them! That’s Batman’s entire superpower! And those are the kind of people who will succeed regardless of what universities they go to.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#25
post #15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Common sense should tell us that standardized tests like this are not fair assessments of actual student academic potential. Common sense should tell you no such thing! Why wouldn't a test that measures a list of aptitudes (writing, comprehension, logic, math, etc.) not correlate to some extent to academic success in a liberal arts degree? Literally the classes you have to take are related to writing, comprehension…

> Many universities have decided that they value diversity (ever how they define that) higher than or equal to pure academic results. This is a rational thing to do, because "pure academic results" are hard to get a useful measure from. Here's an analogy. Suppose you are looking for the most secure encryption algorithm. One thing you could measure is the number of unbroken messages generated from the algorithm. This…

The point is to select for diversity for the purpose of diversity, not for the purpose of academic potential.

Selecting for prior academic success is a good way to predict future academic success — your analogy about encryption makes no sense at all. Academic success doesn’t fail in any of the same ways that encryption does.

But the problem is that selecting for prior academic success does not select for diversity, because the environments which support early adolescent academic success are not as diverse as colleges want their own student populations to be.

So colleges are left trying to increase the diversity of incoming freshman by passing over more academically successful candidates which don’t meet their diversity quotas.

There is tremendous value in having a diverse campus population, but the best way to get there is to have diverse academically successful applicants. Colleges aren’t willing to wait.

One problem is that these applicants are also generally paying a lot of money to attend these colleges, and if they ultimately aren’t going to be successful those colleges are causing significant harm by admitting them.

Note that one of the primary purposes of the SAT is to predict success in the first two years of college.

The not very good alternative is to lower academic standards in the classes themselves, and certainly there is anecdotal evidence of this but I’m not sure about rigorous studies.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#26
post #9

Next: no grades needed to get BS, MA, PhD. and no attendance necessary. After all some groups are at a disadvantage and they will not be able to attend the classes.. While we're at it - why don't we have The Degree Lottery (tm), or better yet, give degrees right after conception.

I went to Santa Clara University for my Master’s degree. People who never showed up got B’s for their final grade. It made me ashamed to get my degree there.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#27

I did the GMAT years ago and more than anything it is a test of how diligently you prepare for it. Guess what, people who diligently prepare for things tend to succeed at them! That’s Batman’s entire superpower! And those are the kind of people who will succeed regardless of what universities they go to.

Sounds like a really useful signal detector then.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#28
I got a 1000/1600 on my first try of the SAT. Then I went through a $6,000 SAT summer camp, and got a 1600/1600. I used this score to tutor privileged children charging upwards to $100/hr. The conclusion, for me? The SAT has become just another way for the privileged to incestuously perpetuate privilege among themselves. I believe it's a great move to stop considering these test scores.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#29
It's a cynical move to hit their enrollment numbers, sold to the public as something to improve "diversity". But it's really just laying the groundwork for schools to cope with life after the college boom is over.

For elite schools, it also makes it easier to provide cover for legacy and donor admissions. You no longer have to explain how Keese James Shackleford IV got into the the Shackleford school of dkljalfjaf while scoring just 950 on his SAT.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#30
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Common sense should tell us that standardized tests like this are not fair assessments of actual student academic potential. Common sense should tell you no such thing! Why wouldn't a test that measures a list of aptitudes (writing, comprehension, logic, math, etc.) not correlate to some extent to academic success in a liberal arts degree? Literally the classes you have to take are related to writing, comprehension…

The tests have been gamed by a test prep industry that extracts money from wealthy families. Colleges aren't admitting students based only on diversity. They are taking kids with excellent grades, volunteer work, etc. and giving them a closer look. It relies on the judgement of all of the student's high school teachers, rather than a centralized corporate assessment. Poor kids don't get second or third tries at tests…

> The tests have been gamed by a test prep industry that extracts money from wealthy families.

No matter what you do, it will be gamed by money from wealthy families, because successfully graduating from one of these schools opens doors!

For example, one thing that rich families are doing now is getting apartments in "ghettos" so that certain institutions that use an address as a proxy for "diversity" will include them.

Whenever you have something of value (like an Ivy League education), people are going to compete for it.

Short of a literally random lottery that cannot be sold, there is zero way to change that.

> Professors would rather teach exceptional, motivated students from all walks of life

Exceptional, motivated students have never had a problem getting into schools. Universities have long adored the idea of having "church mouse" geniuses, but it turns out that there are only so many of them. These self-motivated, exceptional students never had to worry about the SAT, because they knocked it out of the park ... without coaching!

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