Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls • Hacker News Board

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#241

Post by vfc1 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

spion wrote: post #210

vfc1 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a source: https://www.globalagriculture.org/report-topics/meat-and-ani... > Livestock is the world's largest user of land resources, with pasture and arable land dedicated to the production of feed representing almost 80% of the total agricultural land. One-third of global arable land is used to grow feed, while 26% of the Earth's ice-free terrestrial surface is used for grazing.

Pasture land isn't really usable for anything else, and the level of destruction caused by converting land to monocrops far exceeds that of animal grazing.

A lot of pasture land, for example in Amazonia has actually been created by systematic deforestation, also in Europe, which was deforested a couple of centuries ago.

So a lot of that land could be used for reforesting. And if it would be so simple to use that land to raise cattle, why are there factory farms then?

It sounds cheaper to raise the cows on grass which is free food, unlike rations. Clearly the amount of meat produced that way is not sufficient for the demand.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#242

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #233

leetcrew wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers, and start taking over a larger part of the market. I don't think this is really true. people tend to associate "ethical" products with higher quality and are willing to pay more for them if they can afford it. this i…

I think the truth is, most people don't care. They just go to the supermarket and throw in their shopping cart the cheapest option, and that's about it. Its too much work and unrealistic to think people will be that aware, read labels, compare options, etc. It needs to come from the law.

> I think the truth is, most people don't care. They just go to the supermarket and throw in their shopping cart the cheapest option, and that's about it.

sure, all I'm saying is both can be true. most people can not care and just by the cheapest stuff and you can have upmarket suppliers for whole foods and farmer's market.

obviously this is not a solution for all the animals. that probably does have to be some sort of law. good luck to any politician who campaigns on pricing poor people out of meat.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#243

Post by asdfman123 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

evandev wrote: post #220

hitpointdrew wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a similar, but opposite boat. Instead of feeling like I am closer to going vegetarian, I feel myself closer to becoming a hunter. I don't like my meat coming from poor factory farm practices, and think it would be great if I could source most of my meat though hunting, and then supplement it with meat and eggs from local farms. BTW factory farming isn't just isolated to animals, there are lots of issues with larg…

That's the main reason why I became a Hunter. It's in my opinion the most ethical, sustainable source of food for the small scale of my family. Sure, it isn't scalable to many people, but I'd argue non-factory farms also isn't scalable.

I mean, really, if we're being honest a perfectly scalable and highly carbon efficient method of meat eating involves hunting other human beings. Think of all the environment you'd be saving!

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#244

Post by amanaplanacanal » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #161

Mirioron wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the addiction can be easily broken and after a while you start finding cheese actually a bit gross because its essentially solid melting fat. Out of the calories you get from (most) cheese half of it is fat and the other half protein. It's absolutely not just fat.

Yes, you're right its fat and protein, I meant to say that it looks like melting fat.

Delicious melting fat

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#245

Post by sizzle » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #163

vfc1 wrote: post #63

This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest like only humans can do. Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I wonder what could possibly go wrong? All completely…

I've never seen myself as a vegetarian, but increasingly as I get older I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of eating meat and my feelings about individual animals. I mean, my fiancee and I used to rescue shelter dogs, and I can't square that behavior of putting through chickens and cows through hell in factory farms. I still eat meat, but I feel like I'm getting closer to not doing that every day.

Have you tried the impossible burger party? They sell the 'meat' in stores now. It's surprisingly good.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#246

Post by Falling3 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

bariumbitmap wrote: post #225

dbcurtis wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha. The number 1 reason AI is popular with dairy farmers? Dairy bulls are more dangerous than you can imagine. Holstein bulls, especially, have a bad, bad, attitude. 2000 pounds of territorial nastiness. Unrepentant killers. Plus, you are working with the cows twice a day, so it is easy to tell when they are in heat. Contrast with the Aberdeen Angus beef cattle that my father bred. Beef bulls are, for whatever reason…

That's a good point. I'd also say that Holstein cows are pretty scary; a cow can flip from "this human is fine" to "I'm going to protect my calf by trampling this human to death" with barely any warning. Factors like floor material also matter. On wet concrete, work boots have decent traction but bull hooves don't, so a bull with a nose ring is a little bit less of a threat. On dirt or dry manure, though, watch out.

> "I'm going to protect my calf by trampling this human to death"

Knowing what we do to their calves, I can't say I blame them. They have every reason to try and protect their calves from us.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#247

Post by Falling3 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #148

classxteve wrote: post #107

This guy who said "don't stop drinking milk because some random person on the internet said so". Dude, really need to get with common sense. Research can and is skewed everyday. You want research? Go to the factory farms where these animals suffer and die each day so you can have your milk and yogurt and whey protein trash. Don't rely on someone to spoon feed you. This is corporate manipulation at Amazon scale. Get w…

I have gone to those farms. Cows die nearly everyday because there are 3000 of them on the farm and their lifespan is 5-7 years, so the numbers work out that way (in the wild it would be less). Otherwise they live in clean barns that are not too hot, have plenty of food and otherwise have an easy life. Boring perhaps, but it isn't cruel despite what you might be manipulated into thinking.

Cows absolutely do not have a lifespan of 5-7 years. Wild cattle easily live 20+ years; same for cared for domesticated species. I've been to these farms to, and I've personally cared for animals that have escaped. For many of them it really is a horrific life. Please don't accuse others of having been manipulated into their beliefs, especially when your claims on the subject are so inaccurate.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#248

Post by hitpointdrew » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #196

hitpointdrew wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a similar, but opposite boat. Instead of feeling like I am closer to going vegetarian, I feel myself closer to becoming a hunter. I don't like my meat coming from poor factory farm practices, and think it would be great if I could source most of my meat though hunting, and then supplement it with meat and eggs from local farms. BTW factory farming isn't just isolated to animals, there are lots of issues with larg…

Actually, most crops (80% of the world crops) are for feeding animals. Shooting the animals yourself is not a very practical solution, or scalable. Sure you could do it for yourself and your family at great expense of your time and even some personal risk, but what about the rest of your city and country? That would surely not scale, there is just not enough wild game to hunt, it can only be done at certain times of…

>Shooting the animals yourself is not a very practical solution, or scalable.

It is 100% practical for me personally. I have the time and money for it. I can agree that isn't scalable, not everyone can hunt their own meat.

>but what about the rest of your city and country?

> It isn't for everyone. That would surely not scale...

I am not looking to solve a national problem, just trying to do what is best for me and my family.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#249

Post by topmonk » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #153

topmonk wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why would a superbug that takes out all the bananas have any effect on the corn, wheat, etc growing down the road? Simply, copies. If a superbug is able to destroy all the world's bananas, it would grow in population 1 million fold to do so. A bacteria or virus with a million times as many members will evolve a million times as quickly. Given such, a species jump wouldn't be hard to do. And after the first coup…

You seem to be acting under the assumption that virii are actively malicious things instead of mere self-propagating feedback loops. Propagation is what causes it to grow - killing its host is a dead end for growth. This isn't Pandemic - there is no neural or neural analog on viruses - hell we couldn't even do that with networked nanomachines. It would be far more plauisble for all housecats in the world to coordinat…

This is hard to respond to, because I don't know what you think I think. I don't think viruses have some sort of “neural or neural analog” or coordinate in some way, so I suspect you don't understand what I'm saying.

I just think, on average, an individual virus particle will mutate at a certain rate. If there are a million times the population, a virus as a whole will then mutate 1 million times faster. So, if a certain virus would given a certain mutation, would jump to another species, and that had a certain chance to do so, then that same virus with 1 million times its normal population would have 1 million times the chance to do so.

That's about as spelled out and basic I'm able to make it.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#250

Post by netcan » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #238

netcan wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As, I and you link say... pork (and poultry) is a different story. Dairy, beef & lamb are farmed differently here. There is nuance. This is a disingenuous way of making an argument. Existence of factory farming isn't in dispute. It exists. ...as does regular farming! How can you possibly argue that decent farming (eg dairy) doesn't exist. Decent farming exists. Widely. Profitably. I'm looking out my window at decentl…

Depends on what you call decent. I mean for the cow it might have more space to walk around and eat grass. Still, it will have their child taken at birth, shot, plugged into a milk machine daily, etc. Farming if left to the natural economic forces in the market will lead to factory farming, unless regulated which is usually not the case. It's on the rise in Europe for example. It's about supply and demand, and about…

>Depends on what you call decent. I mean for the cow it might have more space to walk around and eat grass.

Basically, yes. I can see how opinions would differ, that human exploitation makes it wrong. I do see farming involving raising animals for milk & meat as decent if done decently. It's a big question, and imo, fundamental in that it doesn't have deeper reasons.

Singer (you mentioned above) is famously utilitarian (in the bentham sense). So he does go one deeper. Right & wrong = pleasure and pain. For cows specifically, the question gets too weird to do the utilitarian math... for me.

In some senses, cows wouldn't have exist separately from farming, and for the most part won't. They did in the aurochs sense, but auroch are extinct and were probably pretty different. Would the world be better without cows...

Anyway, a lot of this relates to where I live. Visit Ireland, you will encounter cows. Decent farming is more than viable. I'm not even sure feedlots is what you would get in an unregulated market. All agg markets are subsidized & regulated, so who knows. It's even possible to do pork and poultry well, though here it generally isn't.