Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls • Hacker News Board

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#201

Post by notfromhere » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

classxteve wrote: post #107

This guy who said "don't stop drinking milk because some random person on the internet said so". Dude, really need to get with common sense. Research can and is skewed everyday. You want research? Go to the factory farms where these animals suffer and die each day so you can have your milk and yogurt and whey protein trash. Don't rely on someone to spoon feed you. This is corporate manipulation at Amazon scale. Get w…

There's no ethical consumption of food when there's a population of 7B+ to feed

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#202

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #181

netcan wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Necessary/unnecessary, when it comes to food matkets, is a problematic way of thinking. It's ultimately preference, not necessity driven and our food culture is very complex. Completely necessity driven (calories, nutrients and such)... the food market could be much tinier than it is today. We'd be getting our animal proteins from insects, our fresh vegetables from a small collection of locally efficient species, etc…

There is this illusion in european countries that factory farming is a thing of the US, when in fact for example in Ireland factory farming it exists too - https://beyondthepaleireland.com/2017/07/28/factory-farms-on... And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers…

[deleted]

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#203

Post by gowld » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

PaulRobinson wrote: post #130

All US Dairy Cows are descended from the original two cows, and all humans from the first humans, and on, and on. It is interesting how selective breeding has played a part in several industries though. This example sounds a little appalling to my mind, but I'm a fan of horse racing and all thoroughbreds have to trace their lineage to one of three horses or they're not considered thoroughbred and I'm fine with that.…

That's not true, because species are evolved, not created discretely.

Mitochondrial Adam and Eve are not mates.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#204

Post by Falling3 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

aphextim wrote: post #160

vfc1 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of…

I always get my dairy local. Where I live I am lucky enough to have a family farm that services our area. The nice thing is that their milk isn't that much more than any of the name brands. Maybe 50 cents a gallon. You can tour their farms and watch the process and they are very open about it. http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ If we had more of these local farms servicing more areas it would definitely help reduce reli…

Some of the worst practices I've witnessed (shooting/drowning male calves) existed on small family farms. The idea that these places are synonymous with humane is absolutely false. The male calves are still treated horrifically - either killed within days or sent to a veal farm. And the female calves are usually put into isolation, which is horrific for a young mammal to have to go through.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#205

Post by bariumbitmap » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

One aspect the article does not fully address is why so many dairy farmers are using artificial insemination instead of bulls. Partly it's slightly enhanced milk production, but a bigger reason is the availability of sexed semen, allowing farmers to breed roughly 95% heifer calves instead of 50%. This is a big deal for a dairy farm's finances because a cow is much more valuable than a steer.

https://www.agweb.com/article/how-it-works-sex-sorted-semen-...

https://www.beefmagazine.com/genetics/0601-sexed-semen-econo...

It's also a somewhat controversial practice.

https://hoards.com/blog-24477-sexed-semen-an-asset-or-a-prob...

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#206

Post by netcan » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #181

netcan wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Necessary/unnecessary, when it comes to food matkets, is a problematic way of thinking. It's ultimately preference, not necessity driven and our food culture is very complex. Completely necessity driven (calories, nutrients and such)... the food market could be much tinier than it is today. We'd be getting our animal proteins from insects, our fresh vegetables from a small collection of locally efficient species, etc…

There is this illusion in european countries that factory farming is a thing of the US, when in fact for example in Ireland factory farming it exists too - https://beyondthepaleireland.com/2017/07/28/factory-farms-on... And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers…

As, I and you link say... pork (and poultry) is a different story. Dairy, beef & lamb are farmed differently here. There is nuance.

This is a disingenuous way of making an argument. Existence of factory farming isn't in dispute. It exists. ...as does regular farming! How can you possibly argue that decent farming (eg dairy) doesn't exist. Decent farming exists. Widely. Profitably. I'm looking out my window at decently raised cows right now.

If you think farming is wrong in principle, that's fine. We can debate this. Arguing that farming is inevitably dominated by bad factory farming practices is nonsense.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#207

Post by vfc1 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #172

vfc1 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still the majority of the world population is lactose intolerant and should not be consuming dairy at all. The ones that can digest it, do it usually less well than they think they do. Mild chronic diarrhea is prevalent is western countries, and a degree of dairy intolerance could very well be one of the factors. It gets worse for most people with age, as elderly people can become lactose intolerant, fully or only sl…

There are different degrees of lactose tolerance, and a good fraction of the world's population is at least somewhat tolerant. Then there are regions of the world where almost all people are completely tolerant, like northern Europe. There are also lots of dairy products that contain little lactose, from lactose-free milk to cheese. And of course, it's pretty simple to just take lactase pills. From a completely subje…

I don't see them going away either, but I think that it's important that the public realizes that they are completely optional for good health.

But there is this perception that they are absolutely essential due to decades of dairy industry advertising and lobbying, and it's simply not true.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#208

Post by spion » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #185

spion wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things only really make sense in the US due to the heavy subsidizing of corn. You should definitely double-check your common sense, just in case (I'll check mine too)

Just checked. Apparently, one 5th of the EU budget goes to support livestock - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a... A lot of it under the form of crop subsidies: > This land, and other targeted subsidies for livestock, is worth between €28-€32bn (£24-£27.9bn) in CAP direct payments per year for the animal farming sector, 18-20% of the EU’s total budget. That seems like pretty heavy subsidiz…

No, thats not true. AFAIK industrial scale beef farming has only started recently in the UK, for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed...

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#209

Post by netcan » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #120

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I'd just like to point out as you seem to be (wilfully?) unaware - there are far more ethical and natural ways of producing cows' milk c…

One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. Dairy price would sky-rocket and become a luxury item, and few people would be able to afford it several times a day every day, as its so common today.

This is just untrue. Dairy was not produced differently in some ancient past. It's produced differently today, in many places, and recently even in the states. Factory farms have small cost advantages and (imo more significantly) financing advantages. Non-corporate farmers can't tap into private equity markets, bond markets and whatnot like corporate farms can.

Anyway, decent farming is as possible today as ever, even moreso. Dairy would not be a luxury item, it would cost slightly more.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#210

Post by spion » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #184

vonmoltke wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most cases, this is actually done to create feed crops like soy and corn. Soy and corn, particularly corn, have many uses beyond animal feed. > Most of the agricultural fields in the world are used to feed animals either used for slaughter or for dairy and not to feed people directly. Please support that statement.

Here is a source: https://www.globalagriculture.org/report-topics/meat-and-ani... > Livestock is the world's largest user of land resources, with pasture and arable land dedicated to the production of feed representing almost 80% of the total agricultural land. One-third of global arable land is used to grow feed, while 26% of the Earth's ice-free terrestrial surface is used for grazing.

Pasture land isn't really usable for anything else, and the level of destruction caused by converting land to monocrops far exceeds that of animal grazing.