Live data from Hacker News

On Recent Controversial Events

ebb.org

141–150 of 151 posts

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#141
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of how his stated views changed over time, the article is more about how such outside-the-mainstream views end up being a significant distraction from the already (unrelated) outside-the-mainstream views of the FSF. Even were he to turn out to be an incredible coder and lover of open source, I also wouldn't expect the FSF to hire David Duke as a spokesman because the combination of two unrelated advocacy p…

I think we need to keep in mind that RMS was posting this stuff very publicly all the while FSF was a runaway success. If RMS were being nominated to lead the FSF today, sure it might be appropriate to point out that he seems like a wack-job. However, as it stands we've lost one of the most impactful thought leaders of the past several decades over some mudslinging and theoretical "distraction".

It's not a direct comparison, but what was the financial impact and mindshare/market impact on Uber of Travis Kalanick's perceived 'dudebro' leadership? Heck, how much did Uber spend just on damage control? A controversial and divisive leadership figure is a problem for any organization, particularly once that's dependent on donations.

Edit: have you ever witnessed something where all you could think while watching it was "Guy, just shut up, you're doing nothing but hurting yourself by talking."? Now imagine that instead of being some guy on news coverage it's someone who's seen as the public face of your organization, he has a history of doing the same thing and you have zero faith that he won't do it in the future.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think what Stallman doesn't get is the same thing that I don't get, why should he at all have to be concerned with the feelings or even thoughts of everyone else in the entire world when speaking his mind. He doesn't have to be. Of course, equally, they don't need to at all be concerned with his thoughts or feelings when exercising their rights, either. Now, if he wants them to give favorable consideration to him…

He's been fired. That's not the same thing as using your words and yoy know it.

> He's been fired

Yes.

> That's not the same thing as using your words

It's an exercise of property and association rights, rather than speech rights, so, sure, it's a different thing on a precise enough level.

On the other hand, it's the same thing on the level of exercise of rights in which others thoughts and feelings need not be considered outside of voluntary (e.g., contractual) commitments or legal mandates.

Dr. Stallman is free to exercise his rights in manners which disregard the thoughts and feelings of others. He should not, however, be surprised that his doing so is reciprocated.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this idea that "free speech" means that you're not allowed to criticize or take actions based on the speech of others is a bigger problem. This idea that "free speech" makes you immune to consequences is somehow believed by a huge number of people who are otherwise well-educated. But the position seems to me to be impossible to support. It's just completely logically inconsistent. How can defenders of "free s…

A fair argument, as far as it goes. The Whig view of history is quite popular, but history is sometimes cyclical. It took about five years for the cultural zeitgeist of Germany to swing from extremely liberal to extremely fascist starting in the late 1920s. Sure, false flag and other political shenanigans hastened the process along - but it was the culture , or in your words, "the market", that managed to move rapidl…

> It took about five years for the cultural zeitgeist of Germany to swing from extremely liberal to extremely fascist starting in the late 1920s

You're implying that the group of people - the subset of the German population - who were (allegedly) extremely liberal transformed into the group of people that were extremely fascist.

I don't have the time to research this, but it seems much more likely that these were largely - if not entirely - different population subsets, and that the latter arose in reaction to the former. It's not like the two groups had the same shared values with the new addition of "kill everybody that disagrees with me."

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#144
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent seemed (here and elsewhere) to argue that RMS was having his freedom of speech hindered vis-a-vis the fact that people were disassociating with him. Further arguing that RMS should be able to say anything he wants as long as he's honest (paraphrased). I only argued about freedom of association to counter that simplistic thinking. That is, yes it's your right to say whatever you want, but it's my right to d…

No he was fired for not agreeing with other people on a topic completely unrelated to his responsibilities. Software liberalism at its finest.

The thing is, there are very different kinds of responsibilities. One person's responsibilities are to perform some assembly line step in a factory. Another person's responsibilities consist of being a representative of an organization.

If a person has responsibilities as a representative, then there isn't a clear cut separation between their private conduct and that representation, and they have to be aware of that and accept it, however reluctantly that may be. Anything that leader says and does may be interpreted by the public, rightly or wrongly, as being part of the representation.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#145
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Please don't take HN threads further into political or ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

This new trolling account is annoyingly showing up in Algolia searches for "lisp" in quotes.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#146
post #132
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it -- 30 years of flourishing with RMS very publicly documenting his opinion on everything the whole time. That's why I find it hard to believe that his behavior was so harmful to the organization.

It wasn't harmful as in it would kill the organization but I believe that a lot of people were turned away from the FSF or even FOSS entirely due to RMS' behaviour.

Also lets not pretend its just RMS. ESR has been ostracized for his weird comments and behavior as well. The presentation of this as without precedent is really disingenuous.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#147
This is Bradley Kuhn trying to explain and justify his behavior to himself (and, to take a personal stance, I think he did - I think his actions and motivations are fine). I think it points out several things.

1. Dealing with a controversial issue from inside an organization rarely works. Sure, maybe FSF has been grappling with Stallman's non-FSF stances and how they hurt the FSF and free software in general. But they had several years internally to make changes and nothing happened until it spilled over into the public. And then, yes, it did happen quickly.

2. There is a huge tension between the mission of a group and how to interact with the society that group is embedded within. I agree that a group should focus on its mission, and leave other goals to groups more dedicated to those issues. I especially agree that a group with no particular expertise in a matter should avoid pontificating or trying to "lead" in that issue. And yet a group is composed of members from the society. There's a conflict here that no one really knows how to handle.

Why do people high up in very visible or very powerful organizations take on topics outside their remit? Because they have personal opinions and want to use the power of the organization to amplify their voice. I think this is a subtle form of corruption, even in the case where you "created" the organization. Because while Stallman did pioneer the idea of "free software", he's not personally responsible for all or even most of the success and visibility of the FSF. He hijacked the org to press certain opinions. And, yes, while he didn't pretend that the FSF was saying these things, he knew full well that he only had attention paid to him because of all the history of free software and the fact that he was the very visible figurehead. Saying these things to your friends and associates is one thing, but blogging about them is a public campaign.

I don't know the full answer. But an org can't avoid big issues for the society it's embedded in, because that often looks like it's made a decision (usually for repression - to wit, the many groups facing public approbation over apparent kow-towing to the Chinese position on recent events in Hong Kong). But also #metoo and LGBTQ+ rights and Epstein and any number of culture flashpoints in recent history. I think orgs need to make cautious statements that these things exist and that orgs will not endorse unethical or illegal behavior but that other things are up to the actual actors involved. So for example "Black Lives Matter" - I don't expect companies to be champions, and I certainly don't expect any companies to attack it (whether flat-out or noxious things like "Blue Lives Matter"); but I do expect those companies to not make empty talk about equal rights and diversity but to work to make sure their companies aren't part of the problem (e.g. only hiring white men, for example). When a problem is exposed to you, you take that information in and you use it, you don't ignore it, and you certainly don't work to undermine it.

These things blow up because someone in a position of a lot of power does something either purposely or accidentally evil, and then the reaction looks like an overreaction, and we all "murmur murmur MURMUR MURMUR!!" about it for a while.

Let's all be humans. That means we have our goals (game companies make games - and profits) but we also are composed of members of the society we are embedded in, so we are part of those larger goals whether we like it or not. And we don't make social decisions based on "the market", but on foundations of morals and ethics - which we argue about constantly, but over the longer run are pretty easy to see.

Not quite on a tangent - companies today face a huge problem in that they employ people, and people have their own opinions and goals not related to the company's mission. For some companies, the expectation is that you take no position on matters, because that would harm the opinion of the company. I think this is very problematic, especially since a lot of self-censoring happens. I said very little controversial in public while I was employed by a certain large game company, for example, and no one in the company explictly told me to be like that. I think that caused society a tiny bit of harm. But the flip-side is also bad in that companies face unwarranted criticism because some employee says something that goes viral, and then if the company fires the person, the company is in trouble, but if the company defends the person, the company can also get in trouble.

I think this whole thing is only tough because we haven't yet figured out how to handle it. And then once we do, future generations will look back in dismay and say "what the fuck, how could you have been so blind?". I wish someone would figure it out already, so we can go back to being productive.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#148
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I gave multiple examples. Software liberalism is California liberalism and examples were given. You didn't give any examples. You gave a barely incoherent, poorly spelled, rambling word-salad stream of consciousness spiel about "hispanic supremacists" and white genocide and Orwellian THOUGHT CRIME and Zuckerberg and China and the Second Amendment and how California Liberals are literally socialist Hitler. >Your fail…

You cant even read why are you here responding to people. Finding examples given in writing is taught to small children.

We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the CEO was intentionally using neutral rules of hiring that ended in "discriminatory" results. Against what baseline? The results are only discriminatory against a baseline in which affirmative action is baked in. But this can't be the proper baseline, because if it is then any amount of affirmative action can be called into question. Does your company practice some affirmative action? That has a disparate…

Based on studies (ie: resumes with different names, etc.) the baseline is for hiring decisions to be racially motivated against minorities.

Those studies are deeply flawed because they pressupose that the average black college graduate is as prepared as the average white college graduate, or that race does not predict performance controlling for educational attainment. When you look at the results of the National Adult Literacy Survey, it immediately becomes apparent that that is not the case.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#150

>human sexual behavior not a topic on which RMS has adequate expertise Ouch!

This actually makes sense. It is also morally bad to sell cigarettes and alcohol to minors because it is proven to be bad for their health and the society has determined that before the age of 18 people are unable to choose what's good for them.
Post reply on HN