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On Recent Controversial Events

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Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#131

Post by SolaceQuantum »

daxorid wrote: post #123
chowells wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this idea that "free speech" means that you're not allowed to criticize or take actions based on the speech of others is a bigger problem. This idea that "free speech" makes you immune to consequences is somehow believed by a huge number of people who are otherwise well-educated. But the position seems to me to be impossible to support. It's just completely logically inconsistent. How can defenders of "free s…

A fair argument, as far as it goes. The Whig view of history is quite popular, but history is sometimes cyclical. It took about five years for the cultural zeitgeist of Germany to swing from extremely liberal to extremely fascist starting in the late 1920s. Sure, false flag and other political shenanigans hastened the process along - but it was the culture , or in your words, "the market", that managed to move rapidl…

I don’t really think that Germany was actively suppressing anti Semitic sentiment during the time the Nazis rose to power- frankly, they were a minority party that rose to power and then started killing their competition- Nazis were anti free speech, as in they actively went out of their way to kill people expressing differing views.

It isn’t limiting free speech by not wanting to listen to or follow people whose speech you disagree with and the argument that doing so is equivalent to how Nazis came to power is entirely historically inaccurate.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#132

Post by zaarn »

ng12 wrote: post #126
ixtli wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He created it more then 30 years ago. It has evolved into something much, much greater than himself and so the organization has a very serious responsibility to more stakeholders as well.

That's exactly it -- 30 years of flourishing with RMS very publicly documenting his opinion on everything the whole time. That's why I find it hard to believe that his behavior was so harmful to the organization.

It wasn't harmful as in it would kill the organization but I believe that a lot of people were turned away from the FSF or even FOSS entirely due to RMS' behaviour.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#133

Post by marcinzm »

gnicholas wrote: post #104
ddiq wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No CEO would say this, even if they thought it, because it could be used in evidence in a diversity lawsuit under the 80% rule of diverse impact, because the CEO was intentionally using neutral rules of hiring that ended in "discriminatory" results.

> because the CEO was intentionally using neutral rules of hiring that ended in "discriminatory" results. Against what baseline? The results are only discriminatory against a baseline in which affirmative action is baked in. But this can't be the proper baseline, because if it is then any amount of affirmative action can be called into question. Does your company practice some affirmative action? That has a disparate…

Based on studies (ie: resumes with different names, etc.) the baseline is for hiring decisions to be racially motivated against minorities.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#134

Post by marcinzm »

ng12 wrote: post #126
ixtli wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He created it more then 30 years ago. It has evolved into something much, much greater than himself and so the organization has a very serious responsibility to more stakeholders as well.

That's exactly it -- 30 years of flourishing with RMS very publicly documenting his opinion on everything the whole time. That's why I find it hard to believe that his behavior was so harmful to the organization.

Has it flourished? If we use the GPL as a barometer of FSFs success then it's going downhill. Apache and MIT licensing is on the rise dramatically while GPL is a decline proportion wise. On the other hand companies that want a GPL-like license are finding the GPL not strong enough (MongoDB).

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#135

Post by michannne »

marcinzm wrote: post #134
ng12 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it -- 30 years of flourishing with RMS very publicly documenting his opinion on everything the whole time. That's why I find it hard to believe that his behavior was so harmful to the organization.

Has it flourished? If we use the GPL as a barometer of FSFs success then it's going downhill. Apache and MIT licensing is on the rise dramatically while GPL is a decline proportion wise. On the other hand companies that want a GPL-like license are finding the GPL not strong enough (MongoDB).

But that stagnation has nothing to do with anything RMS's behavior

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#137

Post by lisp-missionary »

dragonwriter wrote: post #115
lisp-missionary wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what Stallman doesn't get is the same thing that I don't get, why should he at all have to be concerned with the feelings or even thoughts of everyone else in the entire world when speaking his mind. What makes other people's feelings or even thoughts so much more important that action should be taken against him if he's honest about what he thinks. By the way, some of the comments he's being demonized for wo…

> I think what Stallman doesn't get is the same thing that I don't get, why should he at all have to be concerned with the feelings or even thoughts of everyone else in the entire world when speaking his mind. He doesn't have to be. Of course, equally, they don't need to at all be concerned with his thoughts or feelings when exercising their rights, either. Now, if he wants them to give favorable consideration to him…

He's been fired. That's not the same thing as using your words and yoy know it.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#138

Post by lisp-missionary »

krapp wrote: post #106
lisp-missionary wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>I gave multiple examples. Software liberalism is California liberalism and examples were given. You didn't give any examples. You gave a barely incoherent, poorly spelled, rambling word-salad stream of consciousness spiel about "hispanic supremacists" and white genocide and Orwellian THOUGHT CRIME and Zuckerberg and China and the Second Amendment and how California Liberals are literally socialist Hitler. >Your fail…

You cant even read why are you here responding to people. Finding examples given in writing is taught to small children.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#139

Post by lisp-missionary »

mthoms wrote: post #113
humanrebar wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss the argument. The question isn't whether people should have the freedom to disassociate. I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise. The question is whether it's wise or beneficial to use that freedom in this way.

The parent seemed (here and elsewhere) to argue that RMS was having his freedom of speech hindered vis-a-vis the fact that people were disassociating with him. Further arguing that RMS should be able to say anything he wants as long as he's honest (paraphrased). I only argued about freedom of association to counter that simplistic thinking. That is, yes it's your right to say whatever you want, but it's my right to d…

No he was fired for not agreeing with other people on a topic completely unrelated to his responsibilities. Software liberalism at its finest.

Re: On Recent Controversial Events

#140

Post by ng12 »

zaarn wrote: post #132
ng12 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it -- 30 years of flourishing with RMS very publicly documenting his opinion on everything the whole time. That's why I find it hard to believe that his behavior was so harmful to the organization.

It wasn't harmful as in it would kill the organization but I believe that a lot of people were turned away from the FSF or even FOSS entirely due to RMS' behaviour.

I think that's an exaggeration but it doesn't matter -- you cannot weigh real, tangible, impactful good against theoretical harm.
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