Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls • Hacker News Board

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#161

Post by vfc1 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:48 PM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #154

vfc1 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dairy actually has hormones called caso-morphines that bind to the same brain receptors as I believe heroine (of course not as potent). So it's addictive in nature, this addition is probably meant to keep the calf close to the mother and away from harm. But the addiction can be easily broken and after a while you start finding cheese actually a bit gross because its essentially solid melting fat. As far as I know for…

> But the addiction can be easily broken and after a while you start finding cheese actually a bit gross because its essentially solid melting fat. Out of the calories you get from (most) cheese half of it is fat and the other half protein. It's absolutely not just fat.

Yes, you're right its fat and protein, I meant to say that it looks like melting fat.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#162

Post by spion » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:49 PM UTC

yboris wrote: post #151

lmilcin wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. This is simply not true. What you probably mean is it is not possible to achieve the same results while not caring how it is done (ie. going about our lives). Throughout the history people relied on dairy way more…

You said it yourself: > people choose the cheapest product the cows be damned. When vfc1 says "One thing implies the other", the charitable interpretation of that statement is likely "given the way our society is structured at this time, it's inevitable that this result will obtain". When taking care of cows means spending more money on their welfare than some competitor, and when people are willingly disinterested i…

This doesn't help actually fix the problem, because you have equivalent problems with irresponsible production of plant based food (soil erosion, destruction of entire ecosystems and replacing them with plant fields and so on).

If we keep attacking the problem from the wrong angle, we won't ever have a good solution.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#163

Post by asdfman123 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:50 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #63

This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest like only humans can do. Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I wonder what could possibly go wrong? All completely…

I've never seen myself as a vegetarian, but increasingly as I get older I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of eating meat and my feelings about individual animals.

I mean, my fiancee and I used to rescue shelter dogs, and I can't square that behavior of putting through chickens and cows through hell in factory farms.

I still eat meat, but I feel like I'm getting closer to not doing that every day.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#164

Post by gwd » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:52 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #145

lmilcin wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. This is simply not true. What you probably mean is it is not possible to achieve the same results while not caring how it is done (ie. going about our lives). Throughout the history people relied on dairy way more…

> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of…

> These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc.

This is the "market for lemons" problem: Consumers can't tell actually humane treatment from fake, which ends up economically pressuring farms to cut corners and go towards the fake.

You could register a trademark and have a certification program for "humane" milk / meat producers to use. Then go around raising awareness of what "pasture-raised" and "grass-fed" really means. If you do a good job of communicating, people will be happy to pay the extra $0.50 (or $1) to know the cows are actually chilling in the fields and not cooped up in a pen.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#165

Post by spion » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #152

throwawaygkdpvp wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers that don't use any of the things you mention and it's nearly not the cost of a luxury item. I live in a huge city, too. So something must be off in what you're saying. I don't know why you show such certainty of tone, are you a specialist?

> I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers Not a specialist here, but I think I'm generally well informed and just trying to use some common sense. You probably pay a bit more for that milk than at the supermarket, right? Most people in your country don't do what you do, they buy it at the supermarket. The dairy products at the supermarket simply don't come from those farms. Do you think…

Some things only really make sense in the US due to the heavy subsidizing of corn.

You should definitely double-check your common sense, just in case (I'll check mine too)

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#166

Post by lmilcin » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

yboris wrote: post #151

lmilcin wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. This is simply not true. What you probably mean is it is not possible to achieve the same results while not caring how it is done (ie. going about our lives). Throughout the history people relied on dairy way more…

You said it yourself: > people choose the cheapest product the cows be damned. When vfc1 says "One thing implies the other", the charitable interpretation of that statement is likely "given the way our society is structured at this time, it's inevitable that this result will obtain". When taking care of cows means spending more money on their welfare than some competitor, and when people are willingly disinterested i…

There are many ways to solve the problem of people choosing the cheapest product.

For example, states require cars to meet minimum quality, safety and emissions standards and also have insurance.

This is in recognition that, given choice, most people will not voluntarily pay for these things.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#167

Post by herml6987 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:59 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #159

herml6987 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Dairy actually has hormones called caso-morphines that bind to the same brain receptors as I believe heroine (of course not as potent). So it's addictive in nature So is the following plant-based foods Gluten exorphin (from gluten found in cereals wheat, rye, barley) Gliadorphin/gluteomorphin (from gluten found in cereals wheat, rye, barley) Soymorphin-5 (from soybean) Rubiscolin (from spinach) https://en.wikipedia.…

And what about relative amounts? I would expect it to be more concentrated in cow's milk than in plants. It's usually the dosis that makes the poison so it would be interesting to know the amounts and its effects in humans. I have a hard time thinking that wheat and barley are that addictive, cheese however I can see it as being quite addictive.

>I would expect it to be more concentrated in cow's milk than in plants.

Citation Needed

>I have a hard time thinking that wheat and barley are that addictive

Sorry but You having a hard time thinking that wheat and barley are that addictive is completely irrelevant.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#168

Post by hitpointdrew » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 12:59 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #163

vfc1 wrote: post #63

This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest like only humans can do. Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I wonder what could possibly go wrong? All completely…

I've never seen myself as a vegetarian, but increasingly as I get older I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of eating meat and my feelings about individual animals. I mean, my fiancee and I used to rescue shelter dogs, and I can't square that behavior of putting through chickens and cows through hell in factory farms. I still eat meat, but I feel like I'm getting closer to not doing that every day.

I'm a similar, but opposite boat. Instead of feeling like I am closer to going vegetarian, I feel myself closer to becoming a hunter. I don't like my meat coming from poor factory farm practices, and think it would be great if I could source most of my meat though hunting, and then supplement it with meat and eggs from local farms. BTW factory farming isn't just isolated to animals, there are lots of issues with large-scale factory farming crops too.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#169

Post by vfc1 » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 1:00 PM UTC

spion wrote: post #162

yboris wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it yourself: > people choose the cheapest product the cows be damned. When vfc1 says "One thing implies the other", the charitable interpretation of that statement is likely "given the way our society is structured at this time, it's inevitable that this result will obtain". When taking care of cows means spending more money on their welfare than some competitor, and when people are willingly disinterested i…

This doesn't help actually fix the problem, because you have equivalent problems with irresponsible production of plant based food (soil erosion, destruction of entire ecosystems and replacing them with plant fields and so on). If we keep attacking the problem from the wrong angle, we won't ever have a good solution.

> irresponsible production of plant based food (soil erosion, destruction of entire ecosystems and replacing them with plant fields

In most cases, this is actually done to create feed crops like soy and corn. Most of the agricultural fields in the world are used to feed animals either used for slaughter or for dairy and not to feed people directly.

Feeding the same amount of people directly instead of feeding animals and then eating them could be done with a fraction of the agricultural resources.

Dairy production is actually one of the most environmentally impactful things that we do, if we want to go that route.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#170

Post by lmilcin » Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #164

vfc1 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of…

> These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. This is the "market for lemons" problem: Consumers can't tell actually humane treatment from fake, which ends up economically pressuring farms to cut corners and go towards the fake. You could register a trademark and have a certification…

This is solvable problem. When consumers and producers don't have incentive to do the right thing very frequently the solution is to regulate.

As an example, if a producer declares they meet a specific standard this could mean they voluntarily undergo regular audit of their entire process including how the cows are treated.

We do this for many products and services. Here in Poland, eggs are regulated in many categories from hens kept in cages to free-range. When you buy eggs they are all individually stamped with a mark that clearly indicates how hens are kept and fed and you, as a customer, can choose the more expensive product but with a knowledge that you get what you pay for.