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Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

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Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#31

Post by petre »

kylecazar wrote: post #23
t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

I've struggled to sympathize at times, on a case by case basis. Interesting that the existence of these movements seems strongly tied to the historical granting of autonomy to the regions involved. I.e, if some degree of autonomy was once granted (take the Basques), I imagine it solidified and now serves to justify the sense of uniqueness. Whereas if it isn't tolerated (i.e, the U.S), separatist movements are nonexis…

Are you aware of the Texan separatist movement? Basically a bunch of nutcackes and conspiracy theorists, Chuch Norris included but nevertheless it exists.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#32

Post by enriquto »

ViViDboarder wrote: post #22
WanderPanda wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime, I 100% agree they should. Generally I tend to support the idea of folks being in control of their own destiny, but I can see why a larger government would not want to allow it. The smaller local government only needs to worry about what is best for itself, while the larger governm…

> To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime,...

In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime (jails political opponents, has paramilitary grops, engages in state terrorism against its own people, etc.)

What happens, then? Do you demote spain as third world (I would totally agreee with that) so you that you can still support the people who want to escape?

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#33

Post by flukus »

oliverx0 wrote: post #19
WanderPanda wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.

Technically correct, but that doesn't tell the whole story as there still seems to be more people that want independence than don't want it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#... .

The minority is not just louder but more numerous.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#34

Post by [deleted] »

WanderPanda wrote: post #14
t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

[deleted]

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#35

Post by ALittleLight »

t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

I thought Catalan's grievance was that they were a large net contributor in taxes and other regions were large net consumers.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#36

Post by stretchwithme »

slapshot wrote: post #7
stretchwithme wrote: post #4

There won't be peace on Earth until people give up on the idea that they have the right to coerce other people into political relationships.

We (USA) fought a war over that. The "if we agreed to stay together then we have to stay together" side won.

Not exactly. Those who wanted out of that fairly free arrangement did not want others to get out of literal bondage. The freedom to oppress is not what I was talking about.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#37

Post by el_dev_hell »

enriquto wrote: post #29
el_dev_hell wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with the Scotland example. Scotland's movement can't be called a separatist movement (independence is a better term, but still not great). Scotland is a distinct country within the United Kingdom. It would be more of a withdrawal movement (similar to the UK withdrawing from the EU). A major political issue in Scotland at the moment (especially in Edinburgh) is Brexit. The majority of Scottish resid…

Are you really arguing that Scotland is a "truer" country somehow than Catalonia?

No, I'm not arguing that Scotland is a "truer" country than Catalonia.

The comment I replied to claimed that most modern separatist/independence movements are caused by historical grievance and ego and not present day issues.

I made two points:

1. Scotland leaving the UK is not comparable to Catalonia leaving Spain. Scotland is a country within the UK. What I mean by country here is that the UK considers Scotland a distinct country. I made the comparison to the UK being a member of the EU because it's a closer example. Spain does not consider Catalonia a country (my opinion doesn't change that fact).

2. Scotland has a "present day issue" relating to the Brexit vote (not to claim there's no historical grievance and ego at play, but it can't be chalked up as just that).

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#38

Post by enriquto »

el_dev_hell wrote: post #37
enriquto wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really arguing that Scotland is a "truer" country somehow than Catalonia?

No, I'm not arguing that Scotland is a "truer" country than Catalonia. The comment I replied to claimed that most modern separatist/independence movements are caused by historical grievance and ego and not present day issues. I made two points: 1. Scotland leaving the UK is not comparable to Catalonia leaving Spain. Scotland is a country within the UK. What I mean by country here is that the UK considers Scotland a d…

so if the UK stopped "considering" Scotland as a country, would the scottish independence become suddenly illegitimate? Please, give me Boris' number, I have the definitive solution to the scottish problem!

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#39

Post by abdullahkhalids »

wslh wrote: post #28
WanderPanda wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

What is the minimum unit of land where you accept that a grouped majority should be allowed to separate? If Girona wants to separate and Barcelona doesn't do you accept the deal?

I think you are implying that if we let really small regions secede, then every town and village could ask for secession if they disagree with provincial or federal policies. And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. I think it's a good question.

We can ask ourselves, what the competing principles here are, as the "right to political self-determination" is not the only principle. One competing principle is stems from the fact that secession requires reorganization of the economic relations between the larger country and the seceding region. As such, there is an economic cost to the country, that must be balanced with the benefit to the world from the region seceding. If the economic cost is high compared to benefit (as is likely for towns), then the country can reasonably deny the secession request.

Of course, if the country is highly oppressive to the region, then the marginal good to the world of a region seceding can be effectively infinite, and then we should always support the secession request.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#40

Post by nomusuari »

narag wrote: post #8
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #5

> Behind the scenes — where unknown administrators are accessing its data and devising and managing protest actions to distribute via the app — there may be an entirely centralized view of available human protest resources. But it’s not clear what the other side of the platform looks like. Our source was unable to show it to us or articulate what it looks like. It doesn’t seem as decentralized as advertised. The auth…

The authorities are the admins. Everybody knows Torra is behind the protests.

That is no true. It is not known who the admins are.
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