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Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

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Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#21

Post by hellllllllooo »

WanderPanda wrote: post #14
t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

I can think of non-evil reasons to stop secession. If the US South wanted to secede to continue slavery is it evil to prevent that to protect people?

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#22

Post by ViViDboarder »

WanderPanda wrote: post #14
t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime, I 100% agree they should.

Generally I tend to support the idea of folks being in control of their own destiny, but I can see why a larger government would not want to allow it. The smaller local government only needs to worry about what is best for itself, while the larger government must think about the nation as a whole.

Looking at California, or New York. If the two decided to separate from the United States, what would be the economic impact to the remaining states in the nation? I’m no economist, but it doesn’t seem good. I imagine this is also true for regions or areas that have strong natural advantages as well. Such as ports which offer military and trade benefits.

I can see both sides. I can feel for folks that want to separate, but also can see why they would not be allowed.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#23

Post by kylecazar »

t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

I've struggled to sympathize at times, on a case by case basis.

Interesting that the existence of these movements seems strongly tied to the historical granting of autonomy to the regions involved.

I.e, if some degree of autonomy was once granted (take the Basques), I imagine it solidified and now serves to justify the sense of uniqueness. Whereas if it isn't tolerated (i.e, the U.S), separatist movements are nonexistent despite similar cultural differences existing within a country.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#24

Post by kilburn »

oliverx0 wrote: post #19
WanderPanda wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.

> In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence.

Citation needed. The main historical request by pro-independence people has always been for a vote to be held on the matter. Spain has always replied that there will never be such vote.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#25

Post by wolco »

scythe wrote: post #13
slapshot wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (USA) fought a war over that. The "if we agreed to stay together then we have to stay together" side won.

The Civil War was not about some kind of ideal of decentralization and certainly was not about today's pining for city-states. It was mostly about slavery, with some esoteric political theory tacked on to the Confederate Constitution to save face.

It was about only allowing white labor in the west.

It was about the Lincoln winning without any representation from the south.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#26

Post by heavyset_go »

t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

The American Revolution was a merchant class uprising over taxes.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#27

Post by freddie_mercury »

WanderPanda wrote: post #14
t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

I don't think it is always so clearcut. In many cases the separatist movement only gains traction when a particular region becomes richer than other parts of the country and complains about "supporting" the others.

It becomes a clear case of expecting others to support you when you are down but then keeping profits for yourself when things turn around.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#28

Post by wslh »

WanderPanda wrote: post #14
t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

What is the minimum unit of land where you accept that a grouped majority should be allowed to separate? If Girona wants to separate and Barcelona doesn't do you accept the deal?

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#29

Post by enriquto »

el_dev_hell wrote: post #15
t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

I have to disagree with the Scotland example. Scotland's movement can't be called a separatist movement (independence is a better term, but still not great). Scotland is a distinct country within the United Kingdom. It would be more of a withdrawal movement (similar to the UK withdrawing from the EU). A major political issue in Scotland at the moment (especially in Edinburgh) is Brexit. The majority of Scottish resid…

Are you really arguing that Scotland is a "truer" country somehow than Catalonia?

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#30

Post by keiferski »

t-away-123568 wrote: post #11

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

Who decides if there is an issue? Who decides that the status quo is the absolute best situation?

The answer to both of these questions is the same: established political and business interests.

If you believe in the political right of people to be self-governing, then I see no reason why you wouldn’t support any and all independence movements which sufficiently represent the populace. Of course, in order to minimize rash decisions, some restrictions might be necessary (e.g. only vote on the issue once a decade, when 85% of the population agrees, etc.)

Having said that, I can see other arguments which essentially say that forcing unification is ultimately beneficial for individual citizens, as larger states tend to have more power then smaller ones (i.e. unified Prussia was invaded far less than the loose confederation of German states.) But this seems a bit unlikely in the modern West; an independent Quebec or Scotland isn’t going to get invaded by its neighbors.

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