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How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

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Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#201
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...but the idea that space is expanding implies an outer "edge" No, it doesn't. For example: consider an infinite number of marbles in an infinitely long line, all of them are touching each other. Now, get an infinite number of helpers stationed along the infinitely long line, and have them all move the marbles in front of them to the right and stagger them out in the process, so that there's now an inch between ea…

You will need infinite amount of energy to insert spaces between these marbles. Can you point us to source of this energy?

The theory of the Big Bang (or at least the variants with an infinite universe) includes infinite energy as part of the initial singularity.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great, but The Big Bang is more or less chasing a status as the canonical answer to an intensely desirable question. It wants to be the answer, yet the facts don't really align with the premise of the question. We just shoe horn a litter of observations into some post-hoc rationale for how the universe "began" and then we retcon anything that doesn't make sense, when we think more deeply about it. It's fine to…

So your chief complaint is that people call it a bang instead of an expansion? Obviously from my comments you'll see I agree we're a little over-confident in all the specifics, but the question isn't "was it event 0", which I don't think anyone has really claimed, but could events, specifically this star, that occurred outside of the horizon of that expansion now have moved into our visible universe. If that's not wh…

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Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#203
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly because space and time are most likely a result of the Big Bang. For all we can tell, "the beginning" was an infinitely dense singularity of space time - there is no "very far from the Big Bang", because, there's no space. Yes, you can somewhat debate that - we're not entirely clear what happened in the first 10^-33 seconds - but we don't know anything about that. So you might as well say "what evidence is the…

THat's one theory. Another is Eternal Inflation.

I thought that theory had issues with quantum gravity?

But either way, inflation would happen in that 10^-33 span I mentioned above. We simply don't know.

And even if we assume it holds, inflation is an extremely rapid expansion of space-time, so the idea that there were things "very far from each other" still does not really hold.

And IIRC, Penrose and Hawkings disproved the idea that inflationary models can avoid an initial singularity[1]. I'd be somewhat surprised to see them disproven.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose%E2%80%93Hawking_singul...

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#204
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ant and balloon analogy is really good from an intuition stand point. Great explanation! Well done :)

Except for fact than in balloon analogy, ant is moving in a direction by balloon surface, while in our case our "balloon" is perfectly still in all directions. Imagine that balloon is not inflated at all, but ant magically moves 70mm instead of 10mm. How this is possible??? I can accept, that our part of Laniakea is expanding, but not whole Universe.

Sometimes I say as joke that in reality the universe are not expanding but the things inside that are shrinking.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#205
post #130
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “nothing” is the one thing I find fascinating ~ maybe it’s our human brains that can’t get it but it just doesn’t work for me! There has to be something doesn’t there?

A way of thinking about it is that space isn't "something". Space is just the gaps between "something". It seems like a lot of people think of the universe as a sort of container/volume that things exist inside, and then what is "outside the box" is a natural question, because there is a boundary to pass. If you instead think of it as simply a description of the extent of a set of objects, it's easier. Picture a simu…

Does that include photons? Photons that have travelled the furthest are, by the above definition, at the boundary of the universe - an ever expanding boundary - which they will never exceed. If this is so and you were 'outside' the universe, would it look like a black hole? Does a universe have an event horizon?

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Precisely. Demonstrating the opposite is an very different thing from failing to demonstrating a difference at all. > What set of measurements and calculation do you have in mind that avoid this circularity? Any measurements that would actually work, I think. You're the one asserting circularity, so I think it's up to you to explain what specific argument would be circular. Especially when you're apparently talking…

Let's go over the circularity issue in more detail. It starts with Swebs' statement that "[The big bang as a uniform expansion in spacetime] wouldn't work out because it wouldn't match what our telescopes are observing." Here we have a claim that the 'uniform expansion in spacetime' hypothesis (UEIS for short), which we all agree is wrong, has already been ruled out by astronomical observation. Next, Swebs offers a s…

> You have claimed that there are, but so far, you have have not presented any details.

You can measure stars and watch the distances accelerate, or look at how the redshift of a star changes over time instead of staying static. These might take a while to do, but this is about what we can measure, not what we already have.

> As shown in the previous paragraph, the relevant differences must be causally dependent on what form the expansion takes, so you have to make assumptions about the latter in order to deduce the former.

This is that part where I see a breakdown in your logic. It's very possible that we can make measurements on Earth that would tell us exactly how our telescopes would differ from a distant galaxy. In that case, there would be no circularity.

Note that the proposition "We can only get this data by going to another galaxy and using telescopes there." is not part of this scenario.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Precisely. Demonstrating the opposite is an very different thing from failing to demonstrating a difference at all. > What set of measurements and calculation do you have in mind that avoid this circularity? Any measurements that would actually work, I think. You're the one asserting circularity, so I think it's up to you to explain what specific argument would be circular. Especially when you're apparently talking…

At best, you are claiming that swebs' argument was correct because there is a different argument for the point he claimed has been demonstrated - but that is, as you say, "a very different thing." My original objection to that argument stands, and you have agreed that it does! > Demonstrating the opposite is an very different thing from failing to demonstrating a difference at all. Who is making any claim about demon…

> Who is making any claim about demonstrating the opposite?

I guess I misunderstood when you said "That actually demonstrates the opposite"...

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's go over the circularity issue in more detail. It starts with Swebs' statement that "[The big bang as a uniform expansion in spacetime] wouldn't work out because it wouldn't match what our telescopes are observing." Here we have a claim that the 'uniform expansion in spacetime' hypothesis (UEIS for short), which we all agree is wrong, has already been ruled out by astronomical observation. Next, Swebs offers a s…

> You have claimed that there are, but so far, you have have not presented any details. You can measure stars and watch the distances accelerate, or look at how the redshift of a star changes over time instead of staying static. These might take a while to do, but this is about what we can measure, not what we already have. > As shown in the previous paragraph, the relevant differences must be causally dependent on w…

> This is about what we can measure, not what we already have.

That is not so, this discussion started with a claim that we already have observational proof that distinguishes between the two scenarios. I have already suggested that the Hubble constant could, in principle, be measured without cosmological assumptions, but we do not, AFAIK, have good enough data, and you have not offered anything to alter that opinion.

>... look at how the redshift of a star changes over time instead of staying static.

Up until now, you have been very vague about what sort of measurements you have had in mind. This is getting closer, but under which scenario does the redshift stay static?

> This is that part where I see a breakdown in your logic...

All you are doing here is disagreeing with the conclusion; you have not offered any refutation of the argument that leads to it. The reason for me saying "the relevant differences must be causally dependent on what form the expansion takes" is that if they were not, then they would not be the sort of differences that could be used to choose between the alternatives. And if they were so dependent, then the mapping from what we observe from here to what would be observed there also has that dependency.

> It's very possible that we can make measurements on Earth that would tell us exactly how our telescopes would differ from a distant galaxy.

There is something very confused here, but I cannot figure out what it is. I can say that my point does not have anything to do with "how our telescopes would differ from a distant galaxy."

> Note that the proposition "We can only get this data by going to another galaxy and using telescopes there." is not part of this scenario.

Actually, Swebs' original claim was pretty much that, as it could accurately be paraphrased as "we have seen, with our telescopes, that, when observed from a different galaxy, the expansion also seems to have originated there." You seem to have put yourself into the position of defending a claim that you do not actually believe in.

Note that there are some conditionals here that you have to be careful of. What I said was that there are certain claims that, if they were made, would result in a circular argument. I did not say that Swebs had made those claims, as he had not done so; I wrote it in an attempt to forestall a trip down a dead end (so much for that!)

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At best, you are claiming that swebs' argument was correct because there is a different argument for the point he claimed has been demonstrated - but that is, as you say, "a very different thing." My original objection to that argument stands, and you have agreed that it does! > Demonstrating the opposite is an very different thing from failing to demonstrating a difference at all. Who is making any claim about demon…

> Who is making any claim about demonstrating the opposite? I guess I misunderstood when you said "That actually demonstrates the opposite"...

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Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At best, you are claiming that swebs' argument was correct because there is a different argument for the point he claimed has been demonstrated - but that is, as you say, "a very different thing." My original objection to that argument stands, and you have agreed that it does! > Demonstrating the opposite is an very different thing from failing to demonstrating a difference at all. Who is making any claim about demon…

> Who is making any claim about demonstrating the opposite? I guess I misunderstood when you said "That actually demonstrates the opposite"...

I probably could have been more explicit. To be clear, the opposites here are 'the big bang is an expansion of spacetime' and 'the big bang is an expansion in spacetime.' Swebs claimed the diagram showed the former, but it acually literally shows an expansion in space (which, it so happens, also works for an expansion of space, and so does not, as it stands, show a way to choose between the two.)
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