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How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

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Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you ELI5 - how can we observe something 93 billion light years away, if the light has only been traveling for 13.8B years? Shouldnt the "observable" distance be the the age of the universe?

Your intuition that there is an limited observable distance because is correct. But because of the expansion, that limit is bigger than "speed_of_light * age of universe" . I don't know enough General Relativity to give a solid explanation. But here is a rough over-simplification: Imagine you've spent the last 5 seconds blowing up a balloon, but there is an ant walking on that balloon, starting from a marked spot. In…

> In the 1st second, the ant moved 10mm. But in the next four seconds you blew up the balloon, so that 10mm of rubber is now 70mm long. The total distance from the ant's starting mark to her end-point can now be well over than 70mm, even though she only walks at less than 10mm/second.

Thus the expansion isn't caused by the movement of the photon but from something else? Then what caused that movement in the first place? And what cause the expansion?

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#192
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously... what's the difference between 'universe expansion' and 'travel'? A particle can't travel faster than c but it can effectively if the universe expands in addition to its travel speed? Are there any established sci-fi concepts that replace the concepts of wormholes with 'universe compression'?

One of the interesting things is that if everyone of us did manage to travel almost at the speed of light then time stops and you can be in universe wherever you want in matter of your seconds. In other words, whole universe just becomes giant wormhole and you teleport from wherever to wherever in matter of seconds at whim. If you reach to the edge of time dimension, the space dimension basically seize the exist.

I'm not sure that's right since things are light-years away it means you also need to travel just as long (or is this just as far as outside obeservers are concerned?). But even so, the universe around you would still get older while you travel like that so in a few trips you will reach the heat death of the universe.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#193
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intuition that there is an limited observable distance because is correct. But because of the expansion, that limit is bigger than "speed_of_light * age of universe" . I don't know enough General Relativity to give a solid explanation. But here is a rough over-simplification: Imagine you've spent the last 5 seconds blowing up a balloon, but there is an ant walking on that balloon, starting from a marked spot. In…

> In the 1st second, the ant moved 10mm. But in the next four seconds you blew up the balloon, so that 10mm of rubber is now 70mm long. The total distance from the ant's starting mark to her end-point can now be well over than 70mm, even though she only walks at less than 10mm/second. Thus the expansion isn't caused by the movement of the photon but from something else? Then what caused that movement in the first pla…

If I understand correctly, the theory is that spacetime itself was created by the big bang. As-in, space, and time itself didn't exist prior to the big bang.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ant and balloon analogy is really good from an intuition stand point. Great explanation! Well done :)

As light is travelling within the expanding universe does the wavelength of distant light change over long time periods or does it appear the same because our observations are expanding too(my head hurts)>

Yes, the wavelength gets longer. That is, in fact, how we measure the distance: for a known frequency (say, the electrons jumping up and down in a hydrogen atom), we observe that this color is "redder" the further away an object is. The number "z" mentioned above is called the redshift because of that, and it's how we know the distances of the furthest objects.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#195
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for fact than in balloon analogy, ant is moving in a direction by balloon surface, while in our case our "balloon" is perfectly still in all directions. Imagine that balloon is not inflated at all, but ant magically moves 70mm instead of 10mm. How this is possible??? I can accept, that our part of Laniakea is expanding, but not whole Universe.

What'll really blow your mind is that it's expanding faster , not slower.

It kind of makes sense to me with some further caveats to the analogy.

If you think of the ant as a 2 dimensional creature living on a two dimensional surface of the balloon, the expansion is occurring in 3 dimensional space. The two-dimensional ant has no way to observe the space north or south (above and below, to us) its plane of existence.

Now, imagine that the balloon is in a vacuum. It had a burst of air (the big bang) for a moment to get it started but it's not the further addition of air that's driving the expansion, it's the desire to equalize pressure between the exterior vacuum and the interior matter.

With that in mind, push everything up a dimension. We're 3 dimensional creatures living in a 3 dimensional universe. That 3 dimensional universe exists as a plane in 4 dimensional space.

The 4 dimensional balloon (that our universe is surrounding) is continuing to expand into the "nothingness" on the ana plane of the 4th dimensional universe because of the "pressure" imbalance on the kata plane of the 4th dimensional universe. (In 4th dimensional spatial terms, ana and kata indicates directions on the w axis, similar to up/down on the x axis, left/right on the y axis, and north/south on the z axis)

At least, that's how I see it in my head, but I'm an odd ball who has never had a problem intuitively visualizing 4th spatial dimension objects and how they might interact with 3rd dimensional space.

As for the increased speed of the expansion... actually, I hadn't thought about that. Does it indicate that equilibrium will never be found? The balloon analogy might be a useful tool, but our universe isn't made of rubber so it might have the capability of being able to expand infinitely without breaking and without its "nature" constraining the expansion speed.

Anyway, if this is a reasonable analogy, the "nothingness" in the ana direction isn't as interesting to me as what might comprise the "pressure" that's in the kata direction that's causing the expansion. It's nothing we'd ever be able to observe or sample since it's outside of our plane of existence, but it's awfully fun to speculate about the composition and nature of it.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#196
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intuition that there is an limited observable distance because is correct. But because of the expansion, that limit is bigger than "speed_of_light * age of universe" . I don't know enough General Relativity to give a solid explanation. But here is a rough over-simplification: Imagine you've spent the last 5 seconds blowing up a balloon, but there is an ant walking on that balloon, starting from a marked spot. In…

> In the 1st second, the ant moved 10mm. But in the next four seconds you blew up the balloon, so that 10mm of rubber is now 70mm long. The total distance from the ant's starting mark to her end-point can now be well over than 70mm, even though she only walks at less than 10mm/second. Thus the expansion isn't caused by the movement of the photon but from something else? Then what caused that movement in the first pla…

And and expansion is a lengthening of something within a frame of reference. What is the frame of reference?

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#197
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, despite the age of the universe (13.8B years), the diameter of the observable universe is 93 billion light years. That's because the universe expanded (and probably still is expanding) faster than light.

Can you ELI5 - how can we observe something 93 billion light years away, if the light has only been traveling for 13.8B years? Shouldnt the "observable" distance be the the age of the universe?

Well, it's an interesting question. Imagine a star that is 13B years old. Basically it means, the light from the star has been traveling for 13B years to reach us. You might say, then the star must be 13B light years away but that's not correct.

The thing is we cannot see such a star in visible light spectrum anymore. The light of the star has shifted to infrared or microwave. Why? Because while the light was traveling in spacetime, the spacetime itself expanded and stretched the light wavelength. When you take a redshift into account, you can correct the distance and figure out that the star must be, say, 40B light years away.

By the way, note that this is all about the observable universe. There might be stars beyond our observation horizon that we might never see due to rapid expansion of the universe.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#198
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, despite the age of the universe (13.8B years), the diameter of the observable universe is 93 billion light years. That's because the universe expanded (and probably still is expanding) faster than light.

So does this mean speed faster than light is possible?

You cannot travel faster than light in spacetime but spacetime metric can expand faster than light. There is no speed limit on the evolution of spacetime itself as far as we know.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#199
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intuition that there is an limited observable distance because is correct. But because of the expansion, that limit is bigger than "speed_of_light * age of universe" . I don't know enough General Relativity to give a solid explanation. But here is a rough over-simplification: Imagine you've spent the last 5 seconds blowing up a balloon, but there is an ant walking on that balloon, starting from a marked spot. In…

> In the 1st second, the ant moved 10mm. But in the next four seconds you blew up the balloon, so that 10mm of rubber is now 70mm long. The total distance from the ant's starting mark to her end-point can now be well over than 70mm, even though she only walks at less than 10mm/second. Thus the expansion isn't caused by the movement of the photon but from something else? Then what caused that movement in the first pla…

You're right; the expansion of the universe is not related to photons. It's caused by the pressure of dark energy. There are some hypotheses but no one knows for sure what dark energy is.

Re: How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The image isn't enough to demonstrate the difference... Precisely. > ...But the speed of light is, along with the way acceleration and redshift work. Are you referring to the cosmological component of redshift? I suppose that, at least in principle, we could determine the cosmological component by first measuring the Hubble constant from the change in distance, over time, of those stars whose distance can be measur…

> Precisely. Demonstrating the opposite is an very different thing from failing to demonstrating a difference at all. > What set of measurements and calculation do you have in mind that avoid this circularity? Any measurements that would actually work, I think. You're the one asserting circularity, so I think it's up to you to explain what specific argument would be circular. Especially when you're apparently talking…

Let's go over the circularity issue in more detail. It starts with Swebs' statement that "[The big bang as a uniform expansion in spacetime] wouldn't work out because it wouldn't match what our telescopes are observing." Here we have a claim that the 'uniform expansion in spacetime' hypothesis (UEIS for short), which we all agree is wrong, has already been ruled out by astronomical observation.

Next, Swebs offers a specific argument for that claim, in the form of a diagram which shows that, in a uniformly expanding universe, each point appears to be that from which the expansion is ocurrring. One problem with that argument, which we both apparently agree on, is that this would be true for UEIS (for one thing, the image can be taken as a diagram of a demonstration using marbles on a table, which would literally be a UEIS.)

There is a second problem with it, however: none of our telescopes have observed the universe from the perspective of a distant galaxy, so we cannot say that our telescopes have shown that everywhere seems to be at the center of the expansion. We can deduce what it looks like from distant galaxies, if and only if we make some assumptions about the dynamics of the universe (there may be other observations from Earth that have already ruled out UEIS empirically, in which case the rest of this comment is moot. You have claimed that there are, but so far, you have have not presented any details.)

There are two possibilities: either it looks the same as from Earth (putting aside details local to the specific point of observation) or there is some difference. In the former case, which would hold if the expansion we observe is a uniform expansion of spacetime (UEOS), and which therefore is what we all, and cosmology in general, assumes to be so, I do not think these observations would rule out the possibility of UEIS. Therefore, for observations made in a distant galaxy to empirically settle the UEIS/UEOS issue, they must differ from those from Earth, in a way that is diagnostic of, and therefore causally dependent on, what form the expansion takes. Furthermore, because the local and remote results would differ in this case, UEOS would be ruled out.

So, when we try to deduce what can be observed from a distant galaxy, we must either assume that it is the same as from Earth (subject to local corrections), which will fail to resolve the issue, or we must deduce that there is some difference - but what difference? As shown in the previous paragraph, the relevant differences must be causally dependent on what form the expansion takes, so you have to make assumptions about the latter in order to deduce the former. There's the circularity, and it is general - i.e. not dependent on what specific measurements are being considered.

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