Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event • Hacker News Board

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#441

Post by pseudalopex » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #434

pseudalopex wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The LDS church downgraded same sex marriage from apostasy to a serious transgression this year.[1] The Episcopal church ordained an openly gay bishop in 2003.[2] [1] https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Robinson

I didn’t say it was the best. I said it’s better than a lot of other churches.

You said it's much better than others. Not that it's better than a lot of others. I think neither is true by American standards. Not even the Catholic church withheld baptism from the children of same sex parents.

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#442

Post by vkou » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #438

vkou wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a litmus test: Do you also boycott Chick-Fil-A, for their, far worse stance against basic human rights (Giving money to charities that are actively working on promoting anti-gay hate crimes)? And the NFL, for their unwillingness to have the playing field be a soapbox for political statements about the treatment of African Americans, by police? You must surely note that many people who have recently jumped on the…

The Chinese mow down protestors with tanks. They are well on their way to developing an Orwellian surveillance state where people are afraid to dissent. They are building modern day concentration camps for minorities. They are using political prisoners as living organ banks to be murdered and disassembled as soon as their parts are needed for a more desirable patient. I don't think Chick-Fil-A is on the same level be…

US police forces kill unarmed people of colour all the time - and this is just the most visible symptom of a very blatantly racist law enforcement and legal system.

Is the NFL on the same level for repressing speech on a protest against this behaviour? Or, like, a little bit on the same level? They are quite clearly picking a side, by silencing speech on it.

> I and a republican can disagree on gay marriage while sharing contempt and horror or organleggers building concentration camps.

So, is it fine for the NFL to support this injustice or not? It sounds like you're predicating it on whether or not a Republican considers something to be unjust - but it's hard to tell (And it would not be a charitable interpretation of your post!)

What exactly is the principled bar here, that requires companies to take a stance for one injustice, but not another? Where do you draw this line?

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#443

Post by triceratops » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:07 PM UTC

flukus wrote: post #341

triceratops wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. Refusing to do business because you don't like what someone is saying is different from refusing to do business on the basis of a protected characteristic.

> Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. That's not true, the list of protected classes includes religion, gender, familial status and veteran status. All things which people have control over. But the point is we've already stomped all over any "right" a business has to deny service to someone. Instead of defending this…

If you have deeply held faith in Religion A and you convert to Religion B purely to avoid discrimination, I don't count it as a real change, and the person themselves would probably not either. The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that?

Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different from their biological sex, but the identity itself is pretty deeply rooted.

Familial and veteran status are also not changeable i.e. if you already have children or are a veteran, you can't go back and change that fact. Even though people have some degree of control over having a family in the first place or serving/not serving, because they have been used as a dimension of discrimination in the past, they've been lumped in as a protected characteristic. There's also nothing bad about having a family or serving/not serving - in contrast to discrimination over a criminal record (legal in many places AFAIK), which like familial & veteran status also can't be changed and which people also have some degree of control over.

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#444

Post by ican1 » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 10:27 PM UTC

alasdair_ wrote: post #290

ican1 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Popper was talking about intolerance as in a group who resort to violent actions against another group (e.g. killing people for making cartoons). Merely expressing an opinion is never intolerance. Karl Popper, a lifelong supporter of free speech, must be turning over in his grave to know that his opinions are now being used to stifle speech. Also who gets to define who is intolerant? Chinese government will sure…

“In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of ration…

Who gets to determine who is a "literal Nazi"? Is Jordan Peterson a "literal Nazi"? His films are currently being canceled.

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#445

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:26 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #442

michaelmrose wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese mow down protestors with tanks. They are well on their way to developing an Orwellian surveillance state where people are afraid to dissent. They are building modern day concentration camps for minorities. They are using political prisoners as living organ banks to be murdered and disassembled as soon as their parts are needed for a more desirable patient. I don't think Chick-Fil-A is on the same level be…

US police forces kill unarmed people of colour all the time - and this is just the most visible symptom of a very blatantly racist law enforcement and legal system. Is the NFL on the same level for repressing speech on a protest against this behaviour? Or, like, a little bit on the same level? They are quite clearly picking a side, by silencing speech on it. > I and a republican can disagree on gay marriage while sha…

I am confused by your confusion.

I merely said that I regard blizzards behavior as reprehensible because I find the Chinese government reprehensible and ergo I would not be buying their products.

This prompted a variety of whataboutism and odd segue where my moral commitment was variously questioned for buying Chinese made goods, watching football, eating at chick filet etc.

An astute observer would note I didn't bring any of this up. I don't give money to the NFL, I don't give money to chick filet, it's unrealistic to avoid all Chinese made goods as a US consumer.

There is no thing particularly wrong with trying to vote with your wallet while doing so imperfectly. It beats not giving a damn.

To quote myself for clarity.

>Furthermore sharing all of my morals isn't an apt requirement for concluding someone has morals. I and a republican can disagree on gay marriage while sharing contempt and horror of organleggers building concentration camps.

The NFL, police misconduct, chick fillet, Chinese made goods are all current affairs of note but none of the above have anything to do with boycotting blizzard.

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#446

Post by prirun » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 12:43 AM UTC

dpratt wrote: post #160

falcolas wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not cleanly stated, but true. Blizzard quite explicitly catered to the LGBTQ+ demographic recently via an Overwatch promotion, a move that can easily be construed as political speech (and which was voluntarily censored by Blizzard in Russia and China). They stuck their feet into this arena, and are now realizing that making political statement can affect their revenue in both directions.

The fact that they voluntarily censored it in Russia and China is essentially definitive proof that they don’t actually care about the issue, but rather think it will gain them more money in the US. If they cared, they would have required that China and Russia be the bad guy and force them, but they’d clearly prefer to take the path of least resistance.

See the documentary "The Corporation". The basic premise of this doc is that corporations are sociopaths / psychopaths. Corporations do not "care" about anything - only people can do that.

Companies do not have ethics, morals, etc. Only individual people have those. The film also talks about how any group of people tend to lose their humanity because in any group, it is easy to fall back on "someone else made the decision", "it's someone else's problem", "I didn't have the final say-so on this", etc.

IMO we too often have given companies attributes and rights of individuals that they don't deserve because they don't behave like individuals, and are incapable of having things like morals.

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#447

Post by dragonsngoblins » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:57 AM UTC

belltaco wrote: post #432

tareqak wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Some ISPs have provisions separating home use and business use and are priced accordingly. 2. Some ISPs (possibly overlapping 1. or not) explicitly disallow hosting of any service on their Internet plans that they categorize for home use in their Terms of Service.

I don't think hosting a personal blog would count as business use.

Hosting a personal blog is beyond the reach of a lot of people. I feel like a large number of the general public wouldn't really ever have it occur to them as an idea in the first place, and of those that do a surprisingly large number might find it too complex for them.

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#448

Post by flukus » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:49 AM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #443

flukus wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. That's not true, the list of protected classes includes religion, gender, familial status and veteran status. All things which people have control over. But the point is we've already stomped all over any "right" a business has to deny service to someone. Instead of defending this…

If you have deeply held faith in Religion A and you convert to Religion B purely to avoid discrimination, I don't count it as a real change, and the person themselves would probably not either. The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that? Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different fr…

> The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that?

Now consider how that applies to a white supremacist, the also have have a deeply held faith in their beliefs (as with most fringe groups), probably more so than most than most religious people. And their beliefs are often equally abhorrent. Why is it OK to discriminate against people that think the white race is superior but not to discriminate against people that think they're gods chosen people? What do we do when a religion thinks it's OK to discriminate against gay people?

> Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different from their biological sex, but the identity itself is pretty deeply rooted.

Some people switch based on mood, making it not an inherent characteristic:

> Genderfluid people often express a desire to remain flexible about their gender identity rather than committing to a single definition.[20] They may fluctuate between differing gender expressions over their lifetime, or express multiple aspects of various gender markers at the same time.[20][21] They may at times identify as bigender - shifting between masculine and feminine; or as trigender - shifting between these and a third gender. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

And as a social construct it can change based on societal expectations and roles.

> There's also nothing bad about having a family or serving/not serving - in contrast to discrimination over a criminal record (legal in many places AFAIK)

On the military I disagree, there is something bad about being a willing participant in wars of aggression and I'd much rather be able to discriminate against them then I would a stoner that landed in jail.

So instead of arguing about grey areas of what is an inherent trait and what is changeable along with how to handle conflicts between protected classes that themselves discriminate, let's make it illegal for companies to discriminate against individuals/organisations entirely?

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#449

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:55 AM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #443

flukus wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Protected characteristics i.e. things you can't use as a basis for discrimination are things that people can't change about themselves. That's not true, the list of protected classes includes religion, gender, familial status and veteran status. All things which people have control over. But the point is we've already stomped all over any "right" a business has to deny service to someone. Instead of defending this…

If you have deeply held faith in Religion A and you convert to Religion B purely to avoid discrimination, I don't count it as a real change, and the person themselves would probably not either. The only way to really change your religion is to have a heartfelt change in beliefs, and who has conscious control over that? Gender identity doesn't seem to be consciously changeable. Some people's gender may be different fr…

> Familial and veteran status are also not changeable i.e. if you already have children or are a veteran, you can't go back and change that fact.

Familial status is changeable: you can marry, have children, divorce, give children up for adoption, and be widowed. All of which change family status. Actually, even aging of children changes family status, since the age of children is itself a factor relating to the family that is covered by protections against family-status discrimination.

> discrimination over a criminal record ... which ... also can't be changed

Criminal record can legally be changed in both directions, though neither is under the full and exclusive control of the possessor of the record (though they certainly have an influence, in both directions)—new convictions, expungements, and pardons are all real things.

Re: Blizzard Cancels Overwatch Event

#450

Post by darklajid » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

cthalupa wrote: post #420

darklajid wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in the West it is expected that token political statements are to be allowed and protected. Is that so? I could imagine a huuuge amount of political statements that are illegal in my home country, Germany. Since I was raised there these rules are ingrained in me: "Free Speech" is not a thing (if we compare it to the US) and - that's the important part - I don't DISAGREE with that. > "Free HK" isn't a particular…

>Is it not? I truly, honestly, don't know how complex that is in the end, compared to - say - supporting Texas leving the US, Bavaria leaving Germany, Basque leaving Spain The HK protestors aren't attempting to secede in any real quantity. It is not on their list of demands. They want a free Hong Kong, but it being part of China is perfectly acceptable as long as they have that freedom. >Westerner here. No, I don't w…

> Perhaps you should, so you can be more informed on a position before posting opinions such as this. As evidenced by the above, you don't actually know what this protest is about, yet are trying to create comparisons that will mislead others that are uninformed.

Nonsense. I live in Singapore, have friends and coworkers in HK. This subject comes up on a near daily basis. On my Twitter feed I especially follow @Pinboard for a perspective on this, every day.

Basically you failed to read my sentence, THEN became condescending. I am aware of what lead to the protests, how the protests look like, I'm exposed to pro and contra opinions every day. Am I an expert? Certainly not. But I care and do think I'm largely aware of the events. I just effing don't want - you even quoted it, although you missed the point - ANY political agenda in game streams. Note the word "game" in there?

At no point have I shown any sort of disinterest in the situation in HK (or political situations anywhere), I merely expressed my strong preference to not cram them forcefully and unsupported into any game stream.

(I don't believe that there's any way to make a comparison about Saudi/Rape victims, but my "No" was certainly low effort. So was your reply above, honestly)

(Addendum while rereading before hitting reply: It seems you also believe that I think HK wants to leave China. While there is a minority that argues for that, I am aware that this isn't part of their demands. My comparisons were made based on the GPs "Free HK" - which my English parser equals with "Liberate HK" not "For a (more) free HK". Even if we only talk about giving regions substantially more authority/liberties, my argument still stands: It was that "Free HK" is actually quite a complex thing as far as I'm concerned)