Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20% • Hacker News Board

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#141

Post by mjevans » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #102

spamizbad wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is HN and you're probably young-ish: When you're older and you've set down roots the last time you updated your voter registration was probably a few decades ago. Chances are your polling place hasn't likely changed either. So you know when elections come, you go to your usual polling place, give your name, get your ballet and "pull the lever" so to speak. You're not thinking "Oh I better double-check my…

> The US is strange: It will wring its hands over low voter turnout while also actively making it more difficult to vote. This all varies by state, too. Here in Oregon all voting is done by mail, and registration is automatic. It's meant to increase turnout and make it easy to vote.

Very similar in Washington (state) too; when you get a driving license or state ID the voting registration is built right in.

There's also mail in ballots by default, at least in King county (Seattle/Bellevue, much of the suburbs). (I think the whole state)

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#142

Post by Izkata » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

gregmac wrote: post #114

spamizbad wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is HN and you're probably young-ish: When you're older and you've set down roots the last time you updated your voter registration was probably a few decades ago. Chances are your polling place hasn't likely changed either. So you know when elections come, you go to your usual polling place, give your name, get your ballet and "pull the lever" so to speak. You're not thinking "Oh I better double-check my…

In Canada, we get mailed a Voter Information Card [1] a month or two before the election. This basically just has your name and your polling and advanced polling location(s). It of course goes to your registered address. If you don't get this card, you know you're not registered (or are registered with the wrong address) and can fix that. You can even register at (what should be) your polling location on election day…

(In Chicago) I get almost the exact same thing.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#143

Post by crooked-v » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

thinkling wrote: post #89

mschuster91 wrote: post #51

In Germany we do not have this problem (neither voter suppression nor voter fraud), for a multitude of reasons: 1) everyone has a government-provided ID document: a passport, for German nationals the ID card Personalausweis also works, and for EU nationals (who can vote in municipal and EU elections) their country's ID document 2) the legal requirement to register at the city/region office ("Meldebehörde") where you…

Yeah, from the European perspective the American situation is hard to understand. In the U.S., requiring everyone to register their address is going to be met with cries of Big Brother and small but vocal resistance. This is despite the fact that the vast majority of people have to declare an address to file their tax return and/or to have a driver's license. The other piece is that the constitution, written before d…

It becomes much easier to understand when you realize that the modern Republican Party opposes centralized voter ID at the national level and supports stricter but wildly patchwork voting ID requirements at the local level for the same reason: it makes it harder for demographics they don't like to get acceptable IDs for voting.

For example, in 2015, North Carolina's Republican state legislature literally looked up the forms of ID statistically most likely to be used by black people for voting ID in the state and banned those for use in voting, while leaving the forms of voting ID most used by white people as valid. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/the-s...

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#144

Post by neonIcon » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #138

neonIcon wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To do a laundry list[1] of other things that I would consider less important than voting requires an ID, which in turn requires you to go to the dreaded DMV. Is it the duty of the government to provide the ID for these people? Nope. [1]] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/24-things-that-require-a-... Almost every single one of which is either illegal, or very difficult to do without an ID.

None of these things listed are constitutional rights like voting and most of the things listed are more difficult but not impossible without ID.

Clearly you haven't tried to do half of these things without an ID.. and a good portion of the other half would likely be illegal. You are correct about the constitutional right however.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#145

Post by CompanionCuuube » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #131

scrooched_moose wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that's largely what voter registration is - a database of every citizen's address. The problem comes in when those addresses change. There's no requirement to inform your old state you left, so millions of inactive voters are left in the database. Generally there's a requirement to register in the new state (drivers license) within 30 days which is often missed, or not required for temporary moves like colleg…

> There's no requirement to inform your old state you left, so millions of inactive voters are left in the database In Germany when you arrive somewhere we know that you are coming from somewhere. So when you register at your new address that usually involves your new city hall informing your old one that you moved. I guess that doesn't really work if registration isn't universal (in Germany we track you place of res…

> (in Germany we track you place of residence basically from birth, it's used not just for voting but also for determining where your taxes go, for government communication, to make sure nobody skips out on bills by moving, etc).

If we tried to institute that kind of system, the political party which currently is all against voter id would be up in arms too.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#146

Post by jandrese » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #128

slg wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fundamentally the same point since that party doesn't want to make it easy and free to get a voter ID. If you have to take a day off work to go to the DMV or need to pay some fee to get your ID, then requiring ID is in practice making it harder to vote. If you want to require a voter ID, it is the duty of the government to assure that everyone citizen who wants one has one.

I'm totally fine with requiring an ID _and_ making it easy for legitimate voters to get one. I don't understand why there are people who are opposed to voter ID requirements (full stop), as though they are inherently racist.

The latter is where Voter ID laws tend to bite. They make it difficult for certain communities to obtain an ID via a variety of underhanded tricks.

What you typically see is a Voter ID go into effect, and then whoops, the state budget is too tight this year so we're closing down a whole bunch of DMV locations and restricting hours on the rest.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#147

Post by wahern » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #121

slg wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fundamentally the same point since that party doesn't want to make it easy and free to get a voter ID. If you have to take a day off work to go to the DMV or need to pay some fee to get your ID, then requiring ID is in practice making it harder to vote. If you want to require a voter ID, it is the duty of the government to assure that everyone citizen who wants one has one.

Everybody has an ID. Find a study that shows differently (for example [1]) and you'll be able to see how obviously synthetic it is. I have no doubt that the people who are opposing Voter ID have no nefarious motive, but there's a lot of confirmation bias at work that creates a false narrative that getting a photo ID is "difficult" and that people without photo IDs are common and disproportionately minorities. [1] htt…

Everybody in your world has an ID. In some impoverished and elderly communities not everyone has an ID. You don't run into these people in your day-to-day life as they manifestly don't have the same work and living habits as you do.

Millions of these people do exist. I've had family members in this boat. Renewals, name changes (especially for women), DUIs, homelessness (which encompasses much more than literally not having a roof over your head), lack of mobility, a DMV that's 30+ miles away, and the simple fact that successfully voting isn't exactly high on the list of priorities for people facing these issues--these are just a few of the myriad random barriers that conspire to hold back people from voting. I've personally seen them among acquaintances; if you haven't, consider yourself fortunate.

I don't see why it needs to be denied. The level of effort the state should expend to address these issues, what sort personal investment and initiative we should expect of people, and such burdens relative to the risk of fraud--these questions are worthy of debate. But nobody wants to argue these things fairly because, for better or worse, the facts are uncomfortable, especially if you cling to the principle of universal suffrage, which we're all expected to do. And maybe that's unfair--it is difficult for certain political perspectives, such as that we should recognize some aspect of voting as an earned privilege requiring some modicum of initiative, to be voiced these days. But that's no excuse for denying facts.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#148

Post by pimmen » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #33

> She went online and discovered that her name had also been flagged as an inactive voter. The state was in the process of removing her from its voter rolls. > “I voted three times last year,” said Ms. Miller. I am still baffled at the election system in this country. Every state does its own thing. One state uses paper, other uses some machines which can be easily hacked, some use both. Somehow voter ID is controver…

You don’t gave a low cost, accessible national ID. In Europe, we do. Democracy is for everyone, not just those who can drive or with a passport, but everyone so unless the US gets a national ID for everyone any restriction on identification will disproportionately hit low income voters.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#149

Post by CompanionCuuube » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #135

andrewla wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody has an ID. Find a study that shows differently (for example [1]) and you'll be able to see how obviously synthetic it is. I have no doubt that the people who are opposing Voter ID have no nefarious motive, but there's a lot of confirmation bias at work that creates a false narrative that getting a photo ID is "difficult" and that people without photo IDs are common and disproportionately minorities. [1] htt…

Did you legitimately just link to a study disproving your point as if that is evidence that supposedly proves your point?

It helps if you read the entire comment, as it would be obvious that the objection was to the "obviously synthetic" nature of the study.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#150

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #101

rdtsc wrote: post #33

> She went online and discovered that her name had also been flagged as an inactive voter. The state was in the process of removing her from its voter rolls. > “I voted three times last year,” said Ms. Miller. I am still baffled at the election system in this country. Every state does its own thing. One state uses paper, other uses some machines which can be easily hacked, some use both. Somehow voter ID is controver…

> Why can't they issue free IDs and track every voter in a database and call it a day? In a very real sense: because that would make it easy to vote. Free IDs are directly inimical to the effort to prevent people from voting . That prevention is a major effort of one major American political party because it's seen as the only way they can win in an increasingly diverse country. The folks who are against free IDs--wh…

> also get very weird about "databases of people",

I always frame the argument like this to my family when they complain. "I'm not opposed to the government maintaining a database of everyone's current address and related information, but if they are going to do that, they should provide free IDs and encourage everyone to participate."