Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#271

Post by Nursie » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #229

greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

Yeah this article is interesting. Cost of housing is basically being described as as high as the Bay Area, but the salaries sound quite a bit lower. Junior devs in SF are making maybe $110-130k, vs 60-90 that the article claims in switzerland. Senior devs are making maybe $180-220k, plus more in stock options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually do often turn into real money at least…

> In other big metropolitan areas (Paris, London, etc.), the cost of living is at least a bit lower, but they're still major cities and not that cheap. And there salaries for engineers are even lower.

If you want decent pay in London you go contract, not perm, and head for the finance sector. You can make the equivalent of $150k-280k depending on how good you are at landing contracts and selling yourself.

AFAICT the situation is similar in western Europe (I get feelers out sometimes at lower but comparable rates for contract work in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, Austria and Belgium).

Perm workers here are being ripped off IMHO, massively. But then the technical standard of the average perm worker at the average mid sized company in the UK is terrible too. It's a vicious feedback cycle of low pay, low respect for the profession and poor results. Perm work in mainland Europe is paid peanuts AFAICT, which is probably why so many find their way to London.

Some of this difference is down to costs and rights associated with work in the EU, which are just missing in the US. And part of the reason contracting is so lucrative is that we effectively opt-out of those.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#272

Post by malthaus » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

jankotek wrote: post #21

Rent in Zurich is $4000 a month and that as an advantage? Is that a joke? Many workers in Switzerland commute daily from foreign countries to save money.

i live right next to google / zurich main station and pay 2300chf/month for a larger flat than mentioned in the article

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#273

Post by swissperson » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

iamasoftwaredev wrote: post #250

vasili111 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work there? 2. How popular is English language is in Switzerland IT companies?

> 1. How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work there? I know someone who was born there, raised there, currently lives there (after a while in North America) and does not having citizenship or want to go through the hassle. From what she says it's a massive pain in the ass.

"How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work there"

"From what she says it's a massive pain in the ass."

This statement is true, but geting citizenship is not required to stay in Switzerland basicly vor ever as long as u have work

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#274

Post by sawmurai » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

Just to add a few data points: in my area it’s normal to pay less than 3k CHF for more than 100sq. m. (Buildings are 3 years old). 10 minutes to the city center of Zurich.

Unless you want to live exactly in the center of Zurich, I have never seen such expensive apartments as mentioned in the article.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#275

Post by Nursie » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

balabaster wrote: post #262

cactus2093 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this article is interesting. Cost of housing is basically being described as as high as the Bay Area, but the salaries sound quite a bit lower. Junior devs in SF are making maybe $110-130k, vs 60-90 that the article claims in switzerland. Senior devs are making maybe $180-220k, plus more in stock options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually do often turn into real money at least…

I can't speak for GitLab specifically, nor for the whole of Europe. I'm from the UK and living in Toronto (which seems vaguely comparable to SV in terms of income/cost of living). I generally keep a pretty close eye on the UK market and I can tell you that salaries for a senior developer job in the UK will compare, when accounting for the cost of living, to about a 75% pay cut against what I earn now. That's not to s…

Don't look at salaries, look at day rates.

UK salaries are a joke, but you can make good money contracting and consulting.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#276

Post by scarejunba » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

kornakiewicz wrote: post #191

CountSessine wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should wages go up to match outrageous expenses? People are being squeezed, but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. I hear this all the time in Vancouver - people blaming this squeeze on stagnant wages - as if the labour market could ever pay people enough to keep pace with supply-constrained, monopolistic markets. The rent is too damn high. And we know why, but ... somehow we just want…

> but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. It is not. The value fire-fighters, teachers or nurses provide is much higher than, say, an enterprise developer, yet in most places the other earns more.

Your premise is not unquestionable. On what is your value claim based?

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#277

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #271

cactus2093 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this article is interesting. Cost of housing is basically being described as as high as the Bay Area, but the salaries sound quite a bit lower. Junior devs in SF are making maybe $110-130k, vs 60-90 that the article claims in switzerland. Senior devs are making maybe $180-220k, plus more in stock options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually do often turn into real money at least…

> In other big metropolitan areas (Paris, London, etc.), the cost of living is at least a bit lower, but they're still major cities and not that cheap. And there salaries for engineers are even lower. If you want decent pay in London you go contract, not perm, and head for the finance sector. You can make the equivalent of $150k-280k depending on how good you are at landing contracts and selling yourself. AFAICT the…

May I ask where did you find good rates in Austria?

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#278

Post by scarejunba » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #229

greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

Yeah this article is interesting. Cost of housing is basically being described as as high as the Bay Area, but the salaries sound quite a bit lower. Junior devs in SF are making maybe $110-130k, vs 60-90 that the article claims in switzerland. Senior devs are making maybe $180-220k, plus more in stock options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually do often turn into real money at least…

A hypothesis I've not tested: salaries are adjusted for risk. European countries have strong labour protections so hiring parties must take on hires at high risk if they don't perform (can't fire them easily). Initial evidence for hypothesis: contractors and freelancers working locally in these countries still have high incomes.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#279

Post by joelbluminator » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

I think it boils down to which culture you like more, American or European. Both have their pros and cons. The American way of life is characterised by more stress, more inequality, perhaps a bit more ambition (for professionals). Less holidays, less calm and perhaps a bit less care free. U.S will generally pay you more. On Average, the average American is less happy than the average Swiss by many measurements.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#280

Post by armandososa » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #245

gregkerzhner wrote: post #186

After reading this article, here is my advice to a developer in the Bay Area 1. Definitely don't move to Switzerland. Your cost of living will be very similar, you will have to work more than 40 hours a week, and your salary will go down. 2. Move literally anywhere else in the USA. I live in Boulder, Colorado and its awesome. Mountains and trails out my door with a great city scene as well. People snob at Boulder bec…

>One thing I have found about working remotely is that its pretty easy to work 35 hours a week and produce the same output as a full time, in office employee. Less distractions and in-office chitchat, and more working time. In practice this means that you can wake up at 7:30, make a coffee, be online at 8am, and then be free by 3pm This is highly individual. My company lets me work remote whenever and as much as I wa…

I've been working remotely for twelve years now and I think that today I wouldn't be able to write a single line of code in a crowded space with other people.