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Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

swissdevjobs.ch

221–230 of 345 posts

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#221
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. It is not. The value fire-fighters, teachers or nurses provide is much higher than, say, an enterprise developer, yet in most places the other earns more.

Firefighters can make bank.. overtime and all that. Teachers are underpaid and nurses are probably too but they too can do well working overtime etc...

Firefighters and teachers are normally overtime exempt salary.

And it's not really fair to nurses to say "you only get a fair wage if you're putting in 60-80 hours". It's also not fair to their patients, as care quality drops pretty hard when you over work nurses and doctors.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#222
post #5
post #2

Cons: no Sun and the salaries seem to be capped at CHF 120-140K. Has that old school European mindset that managers and MBAs should be paid more than individual contributors, engineers.

Lots of Sun, but maybe not as much as Southern California. San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud). Salaries are certainly not capped at 140k CHF, I've seen a number of job ads for 180K CHF and that doesn't count stock options which is usually the bulk of compensation at the high end. Not sure about the MBA vs IC thing though.

Zurich (which is mentioned in the article) sees ~1,500 hours of sunshine a year [1]. That's absolutely horrendous and not "lots of sun" by any measure.

I grew up in a place in France that gets slightly more sun than Zurich. I now live in the Bay Area Peninsula with 3,000+ hours of sunshine a year and the difference is incredible, especially in winter.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_dur...

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#223
post #3

I'm an American expat in Switzerland working as an independent software developer and startup founder. I can agree with a lot of the points listed in the article, but they apply universally to almost all jobs (not just to software developers). I would raise a few points it doesn't mention: - Negatively, it is much harder to find meetups close to you that apply to you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of th…

> Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. I pay 79.99 USD a month for Verizon Fios 1 gbps in nyc. That is before a $200.00 credit. Fios is FTTH. That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in Switzerland. Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color…

That's what obviously the article doesn't mention.

Money is not all, and I know plenty of white people too who could not handle the "arrogant Swiss people", that they had to leave the country.

You can't generalize, I agree, however when you hear more times the same complains from completely different people, you start to wonder if there is not a bit of truth in it, though. I didn't want to add negativity to the post, I just really dislike this sort of articles trying to convince people to do something they might regret.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#224
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. It is not. The value fire-fighters, teachers or nurses provide is much higher than, say, an enterprise developer, yet in most places the other earns more.

Firefighters can make bank.. overtime and all that. Teachers are underpaid and nurses are probably too but they too can do well working overtime etc...

There is something seriously wrong the with the idea that its ok to underpay these very important jobs because they can eek out a living wage by working every hour of their waking life, sacrificing mental and physical health to do so.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#225

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

10 years ago, the rule was rent should not be more than 1/4 of your gross salary. The rule just gets adjusted, we're currently at 1/3. Same thing goes down with health care costs. People are squeezed for it, because they have no choice. Meanwhile wages are stagnating and can't keep up with the rising cost of living.

10 years ago it was absolutely 1/3.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#226

Moving their in 20 days. (software engineer from London). In my opinion there is less opportunities there (In Switzerland) higher starting salary, then people get stuck in the middle 120-140, and can't shift past. (for the reasons mentioned below). Because managers don't want to pay developers more than themselves. HOWEVER, that same problem exists in London, but is typically solved by developers going day-rate contr…

I have seen some day rate contracts in Zurich at astronomical rates, if you don't mind working for a Big Bank. One of them even offered expensed flights, hotel accommodation and a (substantial) per diem!

J2EE isn't the bleeding edge but it can keep the lights on.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#227
The problem is, the salaries in Switzerland are terrible for good software engineers.

This page says 120,000 CHF for 5 years of experience. That's around $120,000 USD.

At Google, someone with that much experience is at least an L5. According to https://www.levels.fyi/ in the Silicon Valley region that gets you total comp of $360,000.

Yeah, not everyone is making Google money. But a lot of software engineers around here are, or they will be at some point during their career.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 years ago, the rule was rent should not be more than 1/4 of your gross salary. The rule just gets adjusted, we're currently at 1/3. Same thing goes down with health care costs. People are squeezed for it, because they have no choice. Meanwhile wages are stagnating and can't keep up with the rising cost of living.

Why should wages go up to match outrageous expenses? People are being squeezed, but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. I hear this all the time in Vancouver - people blaming this squeeze on stagnant wages - as if the labour market could ever pay people enough to keep pace with supply-constrained, monopolistic markets. The rent is too damn high. And we know why, but ... somehow we just want…

> but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour.

If that was true businesses wouldn't show profit (or would show low profit margins consistently) because the value of the workers labour would have been been paid back to them.

Plus that whole thing about these billion/trillion dollar SV tech companies engaging in massive wage fixing.

You're paid the absolute minimum amount of money the company thinks they can get away with.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#229

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

Yeah this article is interesting. Cost of housing is basically being described as as high as the Bay Area, but the salaries sound quite a bit lower. Junior devs in SF are making maybe $110-130k, vs 60-90 that the article claims in switzerland. Senior devs are making maybe $180-220k, plus more in stock options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually do often turn into real money at least at unicorns or public companies) vs $120k+ mentioned in the article.

More generally I've been wondering about this and can't figure it out, why are software engineer salaries in Europe are so much lower than the US? From what I can tell, Switzerland is just about the highest you'll see in Europe, and is still lower than the biggest US tech hubs. In other big metropolitan areas (Paris, London, etc.), the cost of living is at least a bit lower, but they're still major cities and not that cheap. And there salaries for engineers are even lower. As another concrete data point I was looking through the gitlab location adjustments for remote workers that they have released publicly[0], and the floor for anywhere in the US, meaning even the most inexpensive, remote parts in the country, is 63.3% of the baseline SF salary. Any mid-tier city will be higher than that, like 75% of the SF salaries. But Paris only pays 56.5% of the SF baseline. Why is that?

[0] https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/blob/master/dat...

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