Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#631

Post by dkonofalski » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

ufmace wrote: post #605

dkonofalski wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Took me a while to figure out how to remove the apps I never intend to use It took you a while to figure out how to drag an app to the trash in the same way that deleting any other file works? =/

It's not clear that dragging an app to the trash is the "official" way to remove an app, and will remove all associated data, including whatever links it to the App Store, and causes the store to not attempt to "repair" the app by downloading it again or something. It does seem that the "official" way to remove some App Store apps is to long-press on them in the Launchpad, and then click the "X" button that appears.…

>It's not clear that dragging an app to the trash is the "official" way to remove an app

How so? The "official" way to delete files on MacOS is to put them in the Trash. Support articles on Apple's site also show that dragging an application to the trash is one of the official methods of removing an application, unless it was a package installer.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#632

Post by dkonofalski » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

Klonoar wrote: post #587

computerex wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux, to me, is still very much a tinkerer's OS. If you don't have the time to tinker and get things working and just want to get things done, Linux is not the way to go. Completely disagree with you. There are many fully featured desktop environments that are as feature rich as Windows or OSX. Cinnamon, elementary OS, Pop_OS are just three off the top of my head. And hardware support has gotten amazing since 2012…

This reads like every forum post where someone has asked "how's X distro work on Y laptop", and then people respond with something like the following: "Runs great! No issues. Suspend/resume are wonky but I'm able to get by. Bluetooth doesn't work reliably but who needs that? Wifi is slower than in Windows." This is also my experience, recently, with investigating laptops to switch to from my MBP2015. The average pers…

>This reads like every forum post where someone has asked "how's X distro work on Y laptop"

This is exactly how I felt reading that response. Yes, I'll admit that I don't have experience with every distro that's out there so there may be situations that are as the parent comment described. However, I've been using Linux on servers for 10+ years and still find desktop Linux to be a pain in the ass with the exact caveats that you're describing, regardless of the flavor I've used.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#633

Post by dkonofalski » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #619

dkonofalski wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but even if I, hypothetically, conceded that point, all it would take to make my point is 1 piece of hardware or software that didn't work as intended. Wacom tablets, for example, do not have drivers that can be installed from Wacom. Yes, there is an Open Source project for those but most users wouldn't know or have the technical capability to install that past what's been contributed to the kernel. For technical…

From the Linux Wacom project >Our drivers are pre-installed in many major distribution... Oftentimes, you can simply plug in your tablet and start working. I understand it's just an example though. Yes you can sometimes buy some strange hardware that won't automatically work. This happens in Windows too, and installing a package does not require more technical capability than installing something on Windows. >them bu…

>Anyone that's managing to install Linux on their computer has the knowledge necessary to make it " just work."

I disagree wholeheartedly. Linux is easy to install. It's not easy to write a driver for a piece of hardware. It's not even easy sometimes to install a driver that someone else wrote.

Case in point: the state of VR on Linux right now. It works for a lot of people that can dork around with setting things up. It's not, in any way, shape, or form, ready for use by people.

Edit: The Wacom example still supports my point anyways. The drivers that you say are included are from the project page. They are not official Wacom drivers and, as such, are missing functionality for some tablets.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#634

Post by paulddraper » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 11:42 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #291

llimllib wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was linux-only from 2002 to about 2009, on laptops, when I switched to Mac. I just set up a linux desktop for kicks the last couple of weeks, and it doesn't seem to me to be any better than it was a decade ago. * No way to adjust mouse scroll speed; official answer seems to be "don't want that". (Or install imwheel and change your mouse scroll to be equal to hitting the down button (!) which breaks other stuff) * T…

Gnome (3) is just a bit crap. It's the Windows DE of the GNU/Linux world. It's explicitly designed to be boring and not very customizable so that delicate users don't get scared. I use i3 and basically everything is configured via text files. Keyboard shortcuts are trivial etc. You don't need Karabiner to "rebind" because you can directly bind. You don't need to go scary tiling WM, Xfce probably works well, it's been…

i3 is the best thing to happen my computing in years.

You'll need to copy some config if you want your volume buttons, brightness buttons, etc to work. But as far as I am concerned it is the only good Linux display manager.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#635

Post by paulddraper » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #532

llimllib wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thread of responses from the Wayland issue tracker about why "allowing the user to change the scroll speed" is an impossible problem to solve is truly depressing: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/issues/87

I don't know why it would be a Weyland or X issue. Scroll speed should be controlled by the widgets, GTK in the case of GNOME. Trying to set it at the compositor level seems misguided.

Haven't used Weyland, but X is far more than "a compositor."

Keyboard, mouse, touchscreen, etc.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#636

Post by pix64 » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 11:50 PM UTC

newscracker wrote: post #353

puranjay wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use both Windows and Mac. I find Windows file management and window management to be much better. Love the preview you get when you hover over an app icon in the taskbar. Also love how windows don't automatically take up the entire screen. I like to have two windows open simultaneously. This is much smoother on Windows than Mac. I also prefer Windows' taskbar instead of Mac's dock. The negative is changing preferen…

> The negative is changing preferences... Windows is so poorly designed that I still wonder why there's Settings as well as Control Panel offering mostly the same settings, and old settings dialogs from Windows XP or Windows 2000 are still around!

Control Panel has been around for 24+ years and on top of that some (older) driver packages and apps install third party control panel applets as well. It's going to be a long rough road deprecating Control Panel and replacing it with Settings.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#637

Post by pix64 » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 11:54 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #361

puranjay wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use both Windows and Mac. I find Windows file management and window management to be much better. Love the preview you get when you hover over an app icon in the taskbar. Also love how windows don't automatically take up the entire screen. I like to have two windows open simultaneously. This is much smoother on Windows than Mac. I also prefer Windows' taskbar instead of Mac's dock. The negative is changing preferen…

Windows is doing a good job of ruining file management/Explorer in Window 10 I've never had Explorer crash so damn much. Another of my least-favorite features is how they group your files by recently used now. Ugh. Then you have Quick Access, Recently Used, 'Places'....

This might be a third party shell extension crashing. You can try disabling unneeded extensions and seeing if that helps.

https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/shexview.html

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#638

Post by computerex » Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 11:59 PM UTC

Klonoar wrote: post #587

computerex wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux, to me, is still very much a tinkerer's OS. If you don't have the time to tinker and get things working and just want to get things done, Linux is not the way to go. Completely disagree with you. There are many fully featured desktop environments that are as feature rich as Windows or OSX. Cinnamon, elementary OS, Pop_OS are just three off the top of my head. And hardware support has gotten amazing since 2012…

This reads like every forum post where someone has asked "how's X distro work on Y laptop", and then people respond with something like the following: "Runs great! No issues. Suspend/resume are wonky but I'm able to get by. Bluetooth doesn't work reliably but who needs that? Wifi is slower than in Windows." This is also my experience, recently, with investigating laptops to switch to from my MBP2015. The average pers…

> This reads like every forum post where someone has asked "how's X distro work on Y laptop", and then people respond with something like the following: "Runs great! No issues. Suspend/resume are wonky but I'm able to get by. Bluetooth doesn't work reliably but who needs that? Wifi is slower than in Windows."

I am not sure what you are talking about. I didn't mention a single suspend/resume/bluetooth or wifi problem. I mentioned the following brands: Apple, Dell, Acer, Lenovo, MSI

And laptops from these brands that I purchased and used worked out of the box. You are free to not believe me, but you shouldn't put words in my mouth. I am typing this on a Dell Latitude E7450 and there are no issues with this laptop whatsoever. Suspend/sleep works flawlessly, no audio issues, no wifi issues, bluetooth works flawlessly, everything worked out of the box on manjaro linux.

Also I use my Lenovo X1 carbon with manjaro linux to develop software for a fortune 500/inc 500 corporation 8 hours a day and have been doing it for close to a year without a single issue.

My work gave me the latest fully loaded macbook pro but I returned it because I hate the keyboard (it's unreliable as hell and has no travel distance and feels awful) and the touchbar is an abomination. The keyboard is one of the single most important things on a laptop and if the keyboard experience is lacking, the whole experience sucks. I am very happy with x1 carbon latest gen and manjaro linux and my setup destroys the macbooks other devs use when it comes to things like running unit tests.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#639

Post by computerex » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 12:02 AM UTC

dkonofalski wrote: post #632

Klonoar wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads like every forum post where someone has asked "how's X distro work on Y laptop", and then people respond with something like the following: "Runs great! No issues. Suspend/resume are wonky but I'm able to get by. Bluetooth doesn't work reliably but who needs that? Wifi is slower than in Windows." This is also my experience, recently, with investigating laptops to switch to from my MBP2015. The average pers…

>This reads like every forum post where someone has asked "how's X distro work on Y laptop" This is exactly how I felt reading that response. Yes, I'll admit that I don't have experience with every distro that's out there so there may be situations that are as the parent comment described. However, I've been using Linux on servers for 10+ years and still find desktop Linux to be a pain in the ass with the exact cavea…

When was the last time you tried to seriously use linux? Server linux and linux on personal computing devices are not the same thing at all so not sure why you brought that up. In reality most of the hardware related pain points disappeared in 2012'ish and now there are many user friendly distros that just work out of the box. My grandma uses linux.

Re: Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000

#640

Post by computerex » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 12:06 AM UTC

dkonofalski wrote: post #576

computerex wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux, to me, is still very much a tinkerer's OS. If you don't have the time to tinker and get things working and just want to get things done, Linux is not the way to go. Completely disagree with you. There are many fully featured desktop environments that are as feature rich as Windows or OSX. Cinnamon, elementary OS, Pop_OS are just three off the top of my head. And hardware support has gotten amazing since 2012…

And I'm having a hard time believing you because the hardware support for the MacBook trackpad has been abysmal on Linux in multiple flavors. Someone else in this thread mentioned support for mouse scroll speed and that's definitely one that I've run into and had to use workarounds to get to a comfortable place. I also need to use a Wacom tablet that should have 100% support on Linux because it's at least 8 years old…

You should try a modern distribution like cinnamon. I too have a wacom tablet and it works out of the box without requiring any driver installation whatsoever.